Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-21-2013, 08:24 PM

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Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

However, if you want to talk about the DSS, I have just looked up some info to discover a definite development of thought around the time of Jesus reflected in the "Messianic Apocalypse (4q521) which adds resurrection of the dead, healing and teachings to the poor to the mix of expectations:

It is a strange choice for you to make for all this text says about the messiah is "[the hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah". Nothing more.

Ok, here is the passage again:

http://religiousstudies.uncc.edu/peo...bor/4q521.html

Quote:

[the hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will
stray from the commandments of the holy ones.
Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service!
All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this?
For the Lord will consider the pious (hasidim) and call the righteous by name.
Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power.
And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom.
He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]
And f[or] ever I will cleav[ve to the h]opeful and in His mercy . . .
And the fr[uit . . .] will not be delayed for anyone.
And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He . . .]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news
to the poor
. . .He will lead the uprooted and knowledge . . . and smoke (?)

Really? So you think that even though the passage starts out by mentioning the Messiah that is 'incidental', and that it really is God (the Lord) who brings the good news to the poor? Even when in Isaiah 61 a passage that attributes bringing the goods news to the afflicted and liberating the passage not to God but to was who was anointed?

The text is clear enough in what it says.

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Originally Posted by TedM

I'll end with another quote from the same link:

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Line 11 of this text also contains another highly striking feature. Indeed, it appears to be the closest and most direct linguistic parallel to a New Testament text that we have yet discovered. The line reads:

For he will heal the wounded, resurrect the dead,
and proclaim glad tiding to the poor.

Talking about inability to read. Let's go back to the previous line to contextualize:

[T2]And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He...]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news
to the poor[/T2]
He is grammatically the lord. Tabor must be so far out of his fucking mind to manipulate the text so as to miss the subject of the sentence. The lord will heal. The text is plain as day.

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Originally Posted by TedM

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In both Matthew and Luke we read of a deputation that John the Baptist sends to Jesus while John is imprisoned. John's disciples ask Jesus, "Are you the coming one, or do we look for another?" The story is thus tightly framed around the question of messianic identity: what will the signs of the true Messiah be? Jesus answers:

Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the glad tiding preached to them (Luke 7:22-23 and Matthew 11:4-5).

This reply is cast in the style of a precise formula. It reflects a very early Christian expectation of the signs of the messianic age and the marks for identification of the Messiah. One indication that we have here a very early Christian tradition is that these passages from Luke and Matthew come from the source scholars have designated as Q, from the German word Quelle, meaning "source." According to most N.T. scholars, Q was a collection of the "Sayings of Jesus," somewhat like the Gospel of Thomas in genre, which was compiled in the middle of the first century, but before our finished Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) were written.

The phrase at the end of line 11, about "proclaiming glad tidings to the poor" is a direct quotation from Isaiah 61:1, which tells of an "anointed one" (i.e., messiah) who will work various signs before the Day of the Lord. This passage is quite important in the Gospel of Luke. In fact, he highlights it as the inauguration of the Messianic mission of Jesus. According to Luke, it is this very verse from Isaiah which Jesus reads and claims to fulfill in his home town synagogue of Nazareth.

However, what is most noteworthy is that Isaiah 61:1 says nothing about this Anointed One raising the dead. Indeed, in the entire Hebrew Bible there is nothing about a messiah figure raising the dead. Yet, when we turn to the Q Source, which Luke and Matthew quote, regarding the "signs of the Messiah," we find the two phrases linked: "the dead are raised up, the poor have the glad tidings preached to them," precisely as we have in our Qumran text. Luke makes more than passing use of this notion of the "resurrection of the dead" as a sign of the age of the Messiah. In the two places he quotes Isaiah 61:1 he also mentions specific cases of resurrection of the dead: as Elijah once raised the son of the widow, Jesus now raises the son of the widow from Nain (Luke 4:26; 7:11-17). This is hardly accidental, as the close juxtaposition of the texts makes clear.

It is also significant that this section of the Q Source is dealing with traditions shared between the community of John the Baptist and that of the early followers of Jesus. The close connections between John the Baptist and the community that produced the Scrolls have been pointed out by many scholars. Through this Dead Sea Scroll fragment, coupled with the early Q Source of the Gospels, we are taken back to a very early common tradition within Palestinian Judaism regarding the "signs of the Messiah."

Vain christianizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Admit it spin. The gospel Jesus was represented to be the coming Messiah, inspired in part by the Jewsish DSS community portrayal of the Messiah.

Talking about the blind leading the blind.

rlogan · 02-21-2013, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

Here's the personal Wiki article that gathers the evidence in a Wiki-presentable manner.

Thanks! Reading now.

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I'm not sure I grasp your implications here, but Rome had a huge body of Greek speakers in the first centuries of this era, many slaves, some of whom were employed as teachers, so texts in Greek would not be strange. We then need to explain the Latin phenomena in GMark and a Roman origin would supply a certain context for such a linguistic context.

Forgive me for being unclear. I am with you all the way on this possibility.

What I was saying is that even if the author were primarily a Latin speaker from Rome that it would not be surprising at all to see the piece written in Greek because of who he was marketing the text to.

Given that the Greek is not so classy and polished it can be for two different reasons I am not competent enough to judge. One is because it is his second language and he is just using pedestrian Greek as a consequence. The second is once again targeting his audience, which is a pedestrian Greek speaking audience. Across the empire, especially the Eastern Empire, there are numerous languages but Greek is going to be common across most.

TedM · 02-21-2013, 08:35 PM

I simply can't believe how closeminded you are being spin. For as knowledgeable as you are you aren't able to see the obvious connections, and you skipped several good points of argumentation. "The Lord" certainly can heal THROUGH his Messiah in the DSS reference , just as he liberates the captives THROUGH the Anointed one in Isaiah 61. You didn't even touch the Isaiah 61 reference. Geez, I wonder why? You are simply too strict in your semantic requirements to see the obvious. I had the same problem with you in our 1 Cor 15 discussion, and years ago in our discussion about Paul's usage of "Lord".

I'm done.

Horatio Parker · 02-21-2013, 08:52 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

I was thinking of Philo's embassy to Caligula. IIUC the problem began with Rome's conquest of Egypt and the subsequent loss of Greek privilege there.

Sorry, I mistook your comment to have been related you your immediately previous remark about GMark.

No sorrow.

It was related, but I'm just thinking out loud.

spin · 02-21-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I simply can't believe how closeminded you are being spin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

For as knowledgeable as you are you aren't able to see the obvious connections, and you skipped several good points of argumentation. "The Lord" certainly can heal THROUGH his Messiah in the DSS reference, just as he liberates the captives THROUGH the Anointed one in Isaiah 61.

It's not a matter of what can be, but what the text says. It's pretty straightforward. All ya godda do is not use Tabor's blinkers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

You didn't even touch the Isaiah 61 reference. Geez, I wonder why?

There's no use in it. It's a series of statements about a prophet and his job. Hey, but it mentions he was anointed so what the heck let's call it a messianic reference.

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Originally Posted by TedM

You are simply too strict in your semantic requirements to see the obvious.

The contrary to this is that you are so sloppy you won't even read the texts.

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Originally Posted by TedM

I had the same problem with you in our 1 Cor 15 discussion, and years ago in our discussion about Paul's usage of "Lord".

You were not convinced? Whoever would have guessed that a christian wouldn't think about Paul's usage of κυριος if it might deviate from dogma?

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Originally Posted by TedM

I'm done.

Is that a promise? No more baseless, incoherent speculations to justify your religious beliefs? "It's about the messiah, no, savior, no, king-messiah.... What does it matter anyway, when they can easily be confused? I know what I mean."

TedM · 02-21-2013, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

No more baseless, incoherent speculations to justify your religious beliefs? "It's about the messiah, no, savior, no, king-messiah.... What does it matter anyway, when they can easily be confused? I know what I mean."

You got it. Oh no, wait. You don't.

spin · 02-21-2013, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

You got it. Oh no, wait. You don't.

Enjoy your confusion.

:thumbs:

tanya · 02-22-2013, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

We then need to explain the Latin phenomena in GMark and a Roman origin would supply a certain context for such a linguistic context.

Without rehashing my same arguments offered yesterday, perhaps unnoticed, how does one explain Tacitus?

Fluent in Greek, living in "Asia", important member of the Roman leadership, 1st century, native language Latin? presumably, so, would his history and annals be composed exclusively in Rome?

Ditto for his friend, Pliny. Does spin have to be in London, to write English? There is no need to invoke "certain context for such a linguistic context", whatever that phrase was intended to suggest. Ok, maybe he does need to reside in London to communicate effectively....

:huh:

Jayrok · 02-22-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

So you think the fact that the passage starts out mentioning the Messiah is 'incidental', and that it really is God (the Lord) who brings the good news to the poor? Even when in Isaiah 61 a passage that attributes bringing the good news to the afflicted and liberating the captives not to God but to one who was anointed (ie a special person--hint, hint)?:

Quote:

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
And the day of vengeance of our God;

No connection? Was this not seen as Messianic either? Come on..

Isaiah 61 is an extended reference to the chosen servant, Israel (See Isaiah 41:8-9). I don't think it is talking specifically about the messiah. Please see Isaiah 42, which prefaces the passages you posted:

Isaiah 42:1-4 -- “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

Then further in the same chapter:

Isaiah 42:18-19 -- “Hear, you deaf;
look, you blind, and see!
19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?
Who is blind like the one in covenant with me,
blind like the servant of the Lord?

The chosen servant is Israel and it is Israel who is deaf and blind. However, God promises to put his spirit on his servant (Isaiah 41:8-9 and Isaiah 42:1).

Then further on in Isaiah 42:6-7 -- “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

He is still talking about his servant, Israel. The nation of Israel was set to be a light to the gentiles and to open the eyes of the blind, free the exiles, etc. That is, the nation, the chosen people, will be the one who gathers all of its people back. The people of Israel (all the scattered tribes) are deaf and blind and in prison (exiled). The servant of God is also deaf/blind (Israel, i.e. Isaiah 42:19). It is the same thing, metaphorically. The chosen servant is Israel who will gather the exiled and scattered Israelites back to itself.

And then, the servant will be reunited and be a light to the gentiles. The deaf and blind (Israelites within the nation) will be healed and come to the Lord. The messiah will be the new king/prince of the new Jerusalem and act as counselor to other nations who are drawn to Jerusalem to worship God and seek advice.

Then we can read Isaiah 61 in the context of Isaiah's motif of the chosen servant. Isaiah 61:1:

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners

Who must be talking here? The servant... Israel. Because he is the one who is chosen by God to free the captives, release the prisoners, and to proclaim good news to the poor.

Sheshbazzar · 02-22-2013, 11:04 AM

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19 Who is blind but my servant,
and deaf like the messenger I send?

Ya mean Jebus wasn't blind and deaf? Yer really gonna upset the christers with that!

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02-21-2013, 08:35 PM	#163
TedM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA, Missouri Posts: 3,070	I simply can't believe how closeminded you are being spin. For as knowledgeable as you are you aren't able to see the obvious connections, and you skipped several good points of argumentation. "The Lord" certainly can heal THROUGH his Messiah in the DSS reference , just as he liberates the captives THROUGH the Anointed one in Isaiah 61. You didn't even touch the Isaiah 61 reference. Geez, I wonder why? You are simply too strict in your semantic requirements to see the obvious. I had the same problem with you in our 1 Cor 15 discussion, and years ago in our discussion about Paul's usage of "Lord". I'm done.

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