Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 10-02-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stinger

Good evasive answer. I may be wrong, but I think that I have read posts from you where you have stated: the only way to the father is through the son. In other words, the only way to avoid hell is to follow the son. If true, what happens to the people who have never heard of god before? I've always wondered this question, but never gotten a good answer.

Nono, even if I hold that to the father is through the son I would never say that this is to void hell because while 'with' the son we are in Purgatory which becomes hell itself if we cannot leave the son to get to the father.

So yes, the son is the fiery revolving sword that was stationed at the gate when we left Eden and to get back in we must deal with the son.

Those who have never heard of God before will not have a son left behind who's revolving sword is made to our very own measure: no son = no fire = no hell.

jaded_revenge · 10-02-2005, 06:06 PM

Soo, the best way for everybody to avoid hell is to NEVER hear about Jesus? We should burn all the bibles, and never talk to our children about him, wouldn't that be the christian thing to do.

Jehanne · 10-02-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Since hundreds of millions of people have died without ever having heard the Gospel message, why does it matter that anyone has ever heard the Gospel message?

Before Christ, pagans could be saved by following the "natural law" (which God has engraved on everyone's conscience), not committing personal sins and through acts of perfect contrition. After Christ, all were obligated to have explicit faith in Christ. From there, it is a Protestant versus Catholic versus Medieval Catholic versus Renaissance Catholic versus Modern Catholic versus Modern Protestant versus Medieval Orthodox versus Renaissance Orthodox versus Modern Orthodox versus "this group" versus "that group", etc., etc. (See my other posts in the GRD section on this very question!)

Chili · 10-03-2005, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaded_revenge

Soo, the best way for everybody to avoid hell is to NEVER hear about Jesus? We should burn all the bibles, and never talk to our children about him, wouldn't that be the christian thing to do.

You are correct, but since hell cannot be conceived to exist without heaven the avoidance of hell cannot get you into heaven. Therefore it is best to leave matters with regard to our final destiny in the hands of those who created it and just hope for the best. This probably would include burning their churches down.

Chili · 10-03-2005, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

Before Christ, pagans could be saved by following the "natural law" (which God has engraved on everyone's conscience), not committing personal sins and through acts of perfect contrition. After Christ, all were obligated to have explicit faith in Christ. From there, it is a Protestant versus Catholic versus Medieval Catholic versus Renaissance Catholic versus Modern Catholic versus Modern Protestant versus Medieval Orthodox versus Renaissance Orthodox versus Modern Orthodox versus "this group" versus "that group", etc., etc. (See my other posts in the GRD section on this very question!)

But the heaven of pagans was very shallow like a grave above ground that soon is scattered by the wind much like everything else that follows natural law.

It was not until ascension became a common occurrence after Christ showed us the way that the City of God came down to earth where "greater things" (those with permanence) accumulated for there was no other place for them to go.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-03-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

Before Christ, pagans could be saved by following the "natural law" (which God has engraved on everyone's conscience), not committing personal sins and through acts of perfect contrition. After Christ, all were obligated to have explicit faith in Christ. From there, it is a Protestant versus Catholic versus Medieval Catholic versus Renaissance Catholic versus Modern Catholic versus Modern Protestant versus Medieval Orthodox versus Renaissance Orthodox versus Modern Orthodox versus "this group" versus "that group", etc., etc. (See my other posts in the GRD section on this very question!)

My point is, why were hundreds of millions of people who died without ever having heard the Gospel message denied the "privilege" of knowing about it? Why didn't God let them know about it?

Chili · 10-03-2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

My point is, why were hundreds of millions of people who died without ever having heard the Gospel message denied the "privilege" of knowing about it? Why didn't God let them know about it?

Because our God is our God and is not theirs until we make it theirs. Hint, we created him or he would not be ours.

Johnny, I think you have been a protestant too long for your own good.

Jehanne · 10-03-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

My point is, why were hundreds of millions of people who died without ever having heard the Gospel message denied the "privilege" of knowing about it? Why didn't God let them know about it?

Probably because God does not exist.

Chili · 10-03-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

Probably because God does not exist.

Of course he does or our speach would be absurd but maybe you are looking at the wrong place.

Thomas II · 10-03-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Rome has 3 levels: The Church Militant, the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant.

Only the Church Militant is asked to show obedience so as to provide a steam of consciousness against which sinners can be convicted. That is what the Law is all about to which the Church has added some of her own for good measure.

The Church Suffering are those in Purgatory which is the equivalent of Galilee in the Gospels. It was Jesus' detour to Israel and it is our detour to heaven. This would be for those who have been chosen and called by name etc. In this sense are they the genuine Jesuits just as Jesus was a genuine Nazorean Accordingly, the teachings of Jesus mean nothing beyond a foreshadow of things to come when we arrive 'there' to work out our own salvation.

The Gospels, then, is where religion ends and we must rely on entropy to get us back into heaven (notice that Catholics are "basically good" for this reason). This would be why Catholicism is not bible based but they are 'treated' much like the poor man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. Ie. they are sinners and are not encouraged to feast on bible passages.

The Church Triumphant is for those in heaven where they can exist in many different levels. Some will return to Rome while others just enjoy life without having much to say about it.

Chili,
but I was asking about yourself...Do YOU follow Rome or do you follow your own personal understanding about what it is to be a Catholic?
You seem to be saying that you follow your own understanding...but I don't know exactly...That is why I asked you...
I am not passing judgement on you either way...I just wanted to know...

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10-02-2005, 06:06 PM	#12
jaded_revenge Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Australia, Canberra Posts: 2,662	Soo, the best way for everybody to avoid hell is to NEVER hear about Jesus? We should burn all the bibles, and never talk to our children about him, wouldn't that be the christian thing to do.

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