Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julian · 11-10-2005, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Paul's alleged encounter with the "pillars" is contained in the Epistle to the Galatians. Galatians is an interesting document.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Itha...Galatians.html

It was fortuitously discovered by Marcion (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4.3.2). Pseudononymous or forged material is often preceded by an alleged discovery. Perhaps Marcion wrote it himself; it seems to have some autobiographical elements.

The story of Paul's alleged encounters with the pillars is arguably modeled on the historical Marcion’s arrival in Rome. Marcion presents himself to the "pillars" of his time, the leaders of the church for approval, cf Gal 2:9. Marcion attempts to buy himself into the good graces of the Roman church with a gift of 200,000 sesterces (Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 30). Paul is alleged to do the same, a collection from the Galatians to the church at Jerusalem (Gal 2:10, cf 1 Cor. 16:1). Indeed, even as Simon Magus is said to attempt to buy in with St. Peter (Acts 8:18).

Jake Jones IV

Interesting. I suppose that the anti-Jewish nature of Galatians would be right in line with Marcion. I guess I will have to go home and read Galatians, again. This time from a different viewpoint. I will probably wait until my Swanson critical edition arrives in the mail.

I don't have much material on Marcion. How is the Anchor Bible Dictionary on this topic? It's the best I got, I think. What would be the best resource on Marcion, in your opinion?

Julian

jakejonesiv · 11-10-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

That is an argument spin has put forth in the past:

Brother of "kyrios" = brother of Jesus?

See also Brother of the Lord

Jake Jones IV

Julian · 11-10-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

See also Brother of the Lord

Jake Jones IV

I remember that post, actually. I have been unable to find any information on what you refer to as Pontius Codex 238, know where I can find some?

Julian

S.C.Carlson · 11-10-2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

I remember that post, actually. I have been unable to find any information on what you refer to as Pontius Codex 238, know where I can find some?

Looks like it is a typo for Photius codex 238, a translation of which is available at Roger Pearse's site here.

Stephen

jakejonesiv · 11-10-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Looks like it is a typo for Photius codex 238, a translation of which is available at Roger Pearse's site here.

Stephen

Right you are, Stephen.
Thanks.

The passage in question reads,

Quote:

"Thus, this Ananias, when Festus had died in Judaea and before Albinus had entered office, assembled the Sanhedrin on his own authority and accused James, the brother of the Lord, and others with him, of disobeying the laws and he ordered their death by stoning." (Emphasis added)

Zindler argues that this preserves the original reading of Josephus Antiquities, Book 20: chapter 9 .
"the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James."

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv · 11-10-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Interesting. I suppose that the anti-Jewish nature of Galatians would be right in line with Marcion. I guess I will have to go home and read Galatians, again. This time from a different viewpoint. I will probably wait until my Swanson critical edition arrives in the mail.

I don't have much material on Marcion. How is the Anchor Bible Dictionary on this topic? It's the best I got, I think. What would be the best resource on Marcion, in your opinion?

Julian

There is really no substitute for reading the source material first. This will give you the raw material by which to judge the various scholar's interpretations.

We know of Marcion through the church fathers. So I would say read them first. Justin, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Epiphanius, and a little Eusebius. There are also a few inscriptions. Most of this material is readily available.

Jake Jones

spin · 11-10-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

My Hebrew is non-existent.

Pre-empting that case, I gave you a translation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

I consider 1 Cor 10-15 to be late additions and not Pauline. The 500 brothers segment borders on ludicrous.

That's convenient, but what is the significance of these brothers and brothers of the lord?

My original comment was about what we can tell of the pillars in Galatians. I don't think you can make any Jesus people out of them.

spin

Julian · 11-11-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Pre-empting that case, I gave you a translation.

That's convenient, but what is the significance of these brothers and brothers of the lord?

I will think on the matter. Attestation? Attestation that would have been accepted back then but now requires more evidence?

Quote:

My original comment was about what we can tell of the pillars in Galatians. I don't think you can make any Jesus people out of them.

Then why does Paul go to see them? They do seem to share some sort of basic theology/christology. What do you make of them?

Julian

Casper · 12-04-2005, 10:08 AM

If I may ask, all of this seems to hinge on a date of 140 for Marcion's works; what exactly does that include/mean? When they had reached their mainstream peak? Didn't the Apostolikon exist much earlier? What about his particular collection of Epistles?

I guess what I am asking is for a timeline of marcion's works before 140CE, and how that dating, or any alternative dating, affects Detering's proposal?

:huh:

rlogan · 12-09-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

That is a very good question, and one I put to Dr. Detering myself.

Jake Jones

hi Jake.

I finished detering's piece, and it was very interesting.

There were some surprises, and in particular the observation that some surviving texts of Josephus refer to Simon the "small".

I am surprised that Detering made no comments about the most important matter here for late dating - and that is the relationship between the synoptics and the Marcionite Paul.

I am sympathetic to the basic idea of Paul as a Gnostic/Simon Magus legend, championed by Marcion (and arguably at least Galatians as a Marcion product) that was ultimately redacted (Catholicized).

But any way you slice it, the synoptics need to be addressed.

This is where Doherty has a leg up, I think, in establishing an earlier date for the epistles. (Although there is still room for placing them in the early first century, I think)

But now to my question:

Did Detering respond to you?

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12-04-2005, 10:08 AM	#79
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	If I may ask, all of this seems to hinge on a date of 140 for Marcion's works; what exactly does that include/mean? When they had reached their mainstream peak? Didn't the Apostolikon exist much earlier? What about his particular collection of Epistles? I guess what I am asking is for a timeline of marcion's works before 140CE, and how that dating, or any alternative dating, affects Detering's proposal? :huh:

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