Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 06-21-2007, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherMithras

You´re definition of a good person is ridiculous. You´re saying someone deserves eternal damnation for thinking "Margaret talks too much sometimes and that annoys me." Being angry at annoying things does not make you a bad person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

I notice how everyone seemed to move away from my point.

Arcobop said the words: What if someone "loves his neighbor"....and so I called him up on this and said ok has anybody actually accomplished this.......

Yes, that it the question, including God. Has God accomplished loving his neighbors?

Another question is "Are all of God's judgments, actions, and allowances fair and just?"

Why should anyone be perfect? A person does not have to be perfect in order to be loving, kind, considerate, and a benefit to society. Why are you so opposed to people who only make minor mistakes? Why are you not opposed to God killing babies and innocent animals?

Reasonably moral skeptics are not a threat to God or to anyone else. Why must God be a threat to them and to Christians in this life?

Izmir Stinger · 06-21-2007, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

I notice how everyone seemed to move away from my point.

Arcobop said the words: What if someone "loves his neighbor"....and so I called him up on this and said ok has anybody actually accomplished this....and I showed how its not really possible and now people seem to change that into something else. Blackwater moved it to whether or not God is bad for sending people to Hell and other stuff, others moved it to whether or not someone is bad for being annoyed at someone. None of these has anything to do with my point. The opening of this thread was all about if a person loves their neighbor and I ask whether or not this has ever actually been accomplished and I don't think anybody responded to that.

So being a good person requires doing the impossible or baleebin' 'n Jebuss? That means it requires bealeebin' 'n Jebuss, which is what the OP was asking might be the case. You could have just quoted his first question and said, "Yes."

Underseer · 06-21-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcobop

This is a tangent from another thread.

I have been told so many times that there are Christians in work, rather than in word. So does this mean that "Christian" is synonymous with "Good Person"?

Here's another way of putting it:

Is someone who tries to respect other people, doesn't rape babies, is a good father, loves his neighbor, etc. but openly doesn't believe that Jesus even existed, let alone saved all of mankind from "sin" a good person or not?

You don't understand the way they are using "good" and "evil."

A person who is Christian is by definition good, while a person who is not Christian is by definition evil. Therefore someone who calls up the Sean Hannity show to support mass murder, mass torture, et. al. is "good" because he is a Christian. In fact, people opposed to those same atrocities are very likely to be non-Christian, and therefore evil.

Angrillori · 06-21-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcobop

Is someone who tries to respect other people, doesn't rape babies, is a good father, loves his neighbor,

Loves his neighbor and is a good father. You know your absolutely right if a person never once sins they don't need Jesus. I have no problem with that.

Here is a question though can you actually accomplish it.

Let's try this love your neighbor thing: Ok go ahead and think about people and try not to think anything bad about them;
-Think about everyone who has sent you email (this includes spam)
-Think about everyone who has given you a bill after fixing your car
-Think about every American President
-Think about every celebrity

Yep I thought I was a good person too.

How about thinking of every fig tree that didn't give you fruit out of season?

And, uhm, how does thinking something bad about someone stop you from loving them?

Did Jesus love the pharisees? He thought some things that seem pretty bad about them--hard hearts, blind eyes, etc.
Did he love the money changers in the temple? I'd wager he thought some bad things about them.

Or is raging against someone/something not necessarily equivalent to not loving them?

Hmm?

I'm thinking that either being angry at someone does not disqualify loving that person, OR Jesus isn't such a good person himself...

Trout · 06-21-2007, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcobop

Is someone who tries to respect other people, doesn't rape babies, is a good father, loves his neighbor, etc. but openly doesn't believe that Jesus even existed, let alone saved all of mankind from "sin" a good person or not?

Or, is someone who is openly hypocritical in public arenas, cheats on their spouse, engages in hard core drugs and the solicitation of prostitution and uses donated tax free funds to supplement their lifestyle a bad person even if they believe in jeibus, gad and the whole shebang? I'm sure we can find a real life example or two.

Sorry, maybe they're just "lapsed"

aa5874 · 06-21-2007, 09:52 AM

It is erroneous to think that Christians are 'good', they are just like any other person, that is, they sin or do evil every day. The only difference is that a Christian believes that Jesus will forgive his evil and allow him into heaven.

These are the so-called words of Jesus, a confession that he is not 'good'. Mark 10:18, And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God.

purple_kathryn · 06-21-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherMithras

You´re definition ofa good person is ridiculous. You´re saying someone deserves eternal damnation for thinking ´´Margaret talks too much sometimes and that annoys me.´´?

Quote:

Being angry at annoying things does not make you a bad person.

I notice how everyone seemed to move away from my point.

Arcobop said the words: What if someone "loves his neighbor"....and so I called him up on this and said ok has anybody actually accomplished this....and I showed how its not really possible and now people seem to change that into something else. Blackwater moved it to whether or not God is bad for sending people to Hell and other stuff, others moved it to whether or not someone is bad for being annoyed at someone. None of these has anything to do with my point. The opening of this thread was all about if a person loves their neighbor and I ask whether or not this has ever actually been accomplished and I don't think anybody responded to that.

I didn't think that was the point of the OP at all. The point of the OP was if someone who otherwise complies with what is supposed to make a "good christian" but doesn't believe in Jesus/God are they then a bad person solely because of the non belief.

You listing instances where people are less than loving to their neighbours is a bit irrelevant because very few people would be considered "bad" for being annoyed at annoying people and the OP was only using it illustrate the traditional "good christian" criteria.

kiwimac · 06-21-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

Loves his neighbor and is a good father. You know your absolutely right if a person never once sins they don't need Jesus. I have no problem with that.

Here is a question though can you actually accomplish it.

Let's try this love your neighbor thing: Ok go ahead and think about people and try not to think anything bad about them;
-Think about everyone who has sent you email (this includes spam)
-Think about everyone who has given you a bill after fixing your car
-Think about every American President
-Think about every celebrity

Yep I thought I was a good person too.

-Think about sending people to hell (this includes good people)
-Think about drowning every living thing in a flood (this includes babies)
-Think about killing off entire tribes of people (this includes babies)
-Think about sending a lying spirit to deceive the unwary
-Think about deliberately hardening people’s hearts
-Think about...................

Yep I thought Yahweh was a good person too.

really you need to differentiate between what a God does and what people say a God does.

orac · 06-21-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

The opening of this thread was all about if a person loves their neighbor and I ask whether or not this has ever actually been accomplished and I don't think anybody responded to that.

Does your god love Hitler, Stalin, and Osama bin Laden?

If the answer is "yes, but he'll still send them to hell for their crimes" then I can love my neighbour without accepting their crimes as well.

If the answer is "yes, and they go to heaven too" then there's no need for you to annoy us with the evangelisim because we're obviously not going to have trouble competing with that lot for moral superiority.

If the answer is "no" then you're holding us to a higher standard than you hold your god and that's unfair.

In any case, whinging that Hitler is a good person because he accepted Jesus while claiming that Ghandi was an evil person because he was less than absolutely perfect seems a little odd.

LetUsRatiocinate · 06-21-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the wholly babble

"There is none good but God." (Mark 10:18)

God is good by definition. So anything God decides to do is good. By definition.
Everybody else is just not good, christian or no. So the OP has asked a silly question.

Oh, except that christians are forgiven for when they're not good, and nobody else is excused.

Furthermore, we are told to,

Quote:

Originally Posted by the wholly babble again

"Be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Since 'your Father' and 'God' are taken to be one and the same by the perfect christians, I mean the not-really-perfect, but-better-than-anyone-else christians, well, at least the forgiven-for-all-the-bad-stuff christians since nobody's perfect, duh! Where was I? Oh, yes, given all that, then good does not = christian. QED. :Cheeky:

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06-21-2007, 09:52 AM	#16
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It is erroneous to think that Christians are 'good', they are just like any other person, that is, they sin or do evil every day. The only difference is that a Christian believes that Jesus will forgive his evil and allow him into heaven. These are the so-called words of Jesus, a confession that he is not 'good'. Mark 10:18, And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God.

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