tanya

disagree, as outlined, in detail, earlier this morning....

aa5874

Why do you persist with your propaganda?? You very well know that there is ZERO mention of any Jewish Temple in "On the Contemplative Life".

1. There is NO claim that the Therapeutae went to any Jewish Temple in the writings of Philo.

2. There is NO claim that the Therapeutae sacrificed animals for remission of sins in the writings of Philo.

3. There is NO claim that the Therapeutae were circumcised in the writings of Philo.

4. There is NO claim that the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin in the writings of Philo.

5. There is NO claim that the Therapeutae were Essenes in the writings of Philo.

Each house of the Therapeutae had its own shrine--Not a Jewish Temple.

On the Contemplative Life The very Christians of antiquity studied Hebrew Scripture and were NOT Jews so it is not at all logical that the Therapeutae were Jews because they studied Hebrew Scripture.

Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Aristides, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexander, Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Chrysostom and others studied Hebrew Scripture.

Hebrew Scripture is BOLTED to the NT in the Bible of the Christian Church.

Sheshbazzar

May I presume that you missed stephan's heated and nasty suggestion tanya, which he subsequently removed, that mountainman or I, _stephan wasn't clear which one of us, or both, _ought to take you on as a girlfriend?

I have made it clear in hundreds of posts that I do not believe that there ever was any actual Moshe.

The writers of the Torah (certainly not Moshe) borrowed from many Mesopotamian mythologies in fashioning their origins myths.
These Hebrew mythologies and writings had been around for hundreds of years before Plato and were widely known in the ancient world, it is not surprising that Plato in discussing 'theos logic' would have drawn upon these stable Hebrew religious ideas, as a more steadfast and rational basis from which to argue Divine nature, than those of the many pagan religious cults that changed the ways of their gods with every whim of popular fancy.

Your opinion aa. But then you are NOT a Hebrew of the Hebrews, and are unaware of in what ways Philo's blatant and totally unnecessary employment of Hellenisims are offensive to all Hebrews who are protective of their culture and its religious heritage.

Philo's Hellenisms and religious 'philosophy' employed within his writings, if they were originally penned as they now stand, betray a Hellenist suck-up of the very worst sort.
The kind that any Hebrew of the Hebrews would have been honored to have thrust through with their sword. Slaying him like a swine.
You cite the infamous TRAITOR FLAVIUS Josephus? One of the same sort, a man who is very well known to have literally abandoned his own nation and its culture, and fully defected to the Roman side, where he became Vespasian's pet ROMAN Hellenizing Jew?

FLAVIUS Josephus is a known liar. And known TRAITOR against the Hebrew nation of Israel, and against its religious heritage.
You may call him a hero. We who are Hebrews will call him an opportunist and a moral sleaze. A syncretizing lying bastard and a TRAITOR.

Toto

What detail?

I think I'm done with this thread.

aa5874

I am only exposing your erroneous claim that Philo was unknown. What You and other Jews think about Josephus is irrelevant.

Again, your claim that Flavius Josephus is a known liar cannot be true. The Romans, especially the Emperors of Rome, Vespasian, Domitian and Titus must have found that Josephus was truthful.

It is absolutely illogical that the Romans would have used the information of a captured Jew who was a known liar instead of exectuting him as they did to thousands of Jews.

It is almost certain that the information Josephus presented in his writings about the Jews were truthful because his very life depended on it.

Effectively, there may only be one true history of Jews in the 1st century. The Romans did NOT execute Josephus so they must have corroborated his claims about the Jews up to the time he was captured.

Clivedurdle

This is one side's view in a civil war that has been continuing for over two millenia, and why I referred to Maccabees, and why we have in modern Judaism liberal, reform, orthodox and atheist traditions. Arguably xianity and Islam are heretical Judaic cults as well!

Which raises the interesting question, is the claim of a true Judaism similar to claims of true xianities?

Sheshbazzar

As long as he was careful to phrase those truths in compromised language favorable to his Roman masters. They could not check his every claim. He got away with 'fudging' the facts.

He was literate and bi-lingual which made him a useful TOOL. And his Roman masters used him as a TOOL. _Still are.

The French, the British, and the U.S. govenment used information obtained from thousands of captured Native Americans (whom were generally regarded natural born liars) and employed them as useful TOOLS against their own peoples to facilitate their destruction.
It is nothing new to let a useful valuable TRAITOR live when he he can be used.
Governments have been using this tactic since the dawn of human civilization.

Some is. Some isn't. It certainly isn't by any means complete. The Romans were not able to check on the accuracy of every one of Josephus's claims, and he knew it.
And when it come to the finer details of the religion of the Hebrews, the Roman overlords regarded it as barbraic, and certainly would not have been willing to make those careful distinctions that are an essential part and parcel of being a Hebrew.
Josephus told them only what they wanted to hear, any only in words that they would willingly accept. The option was death along with his countrymen.
He compromised so as to save his own skin.

That may be. But you are never going to find it within the writings of FLAVIUS Josephus the traitor.

Only to whatever degree was useful to their plans, and pleasing to their Roman ears.
Most of the true story of the 1st century Jews remains yet to be told.

Most of what we have been spoon-fed on are the lies fostered by The Church and the Roman government.
Josephus The TRAITORS writings were preserved because the Government of Rome and The Church of Rome found them to be useful. _Still do.
The writings of thousands of others were sought out and burned -along with their authors- lest a true and comprehensive history should become known.

tanya

The four comments of Philo, quoted above in post 487, this morning, recopied, from post 395, which you also ran away from.

haha....no I missed that, sorry, because it would be good to find something about sh worth laughing about. His posts, especially the picture of the young babe, remind me of a little kid hopping up and down, frantically waving his hands and arms, running back and forth, desperately trying to get the adults to notice him. But, anyway, his attempt to derail this excellent thread (Thanks Pete) has failed. I know that I learned a great deal. I am sort of surprised that Toto would invoke Dr. Taylor's expertise, but then cut and run, when I challenged the latter's conclusions, without bothering to defend her heroine.

Shesh, you are a refreshing voice, always helpful, full of energy, and with lots of good ideas. I am glad to see your input on this, and every other thread.

Robert's excellent input provided impetus to explore Dr. Murdoch's travail. I am beginning to understand why her work is so popular. She covers a lot of territory.

Clive, thanks for the description of Kos. I didn't know that Hippocrates was considered the "son" of Asklepius, I didn't even know that he came from Kos.

So much to learn, so little time in which to do so.....

Toto

You are the one cutting and running away from the use of theraputae as a generic term for a religious attendant or worshiper, applied to both Jews and pagans. This completely undermines the OP. If, as it is clear, "therapeutae" are not a single group, there is no reason to expect the Therapeutae described by Philo to bear any relation to the Therapeutae who were associated with pagan temples.

As for your four quotes, I've already said that Philo's Therapeuae were not rabbinic Jews. It appears that they, like Philo, were Hellenized. They adopted some customs from their surrounding society. Does this make them non-Jews?

Sheshbazzar

They speak as Greeks, the live as Greeks, they practice Greek forms of religion, and even have their foreskins restored to please Greeks, and to hide their 'Jewish identity' from the worlds 'Jew' haters'. Does this make them non-Jews?

Just how much denial of ones birth, 'Jewish identity', beliefs, and traditions can be sacrificed to syncretize to, and to please Gentiles before one becomes a non-Jew?

If one raises their children as Catholics, and never admits to them of having any Jewish heritage, and these children never have any knowledge of their Jewish decent, and in fact are taught to despise, to scorn, and to hate all things 'Jewish', and the Jewish people. Are they still 'Jewish'?

Far as I am concerned, willfully walking in the ways of Hellenism is any Jews road to Hell.