GenesisNemesis

God cannot be "beyond time" because HE DIDN'T CREATE TIME! Nowhere in the Bible does it say God created time! Go on, check. I'll wait. That means God is time, right? Well, time must've had a beginning, right? How could time be eternal? If you start a stop watch, it's going to begin at 1 millisecond, 1 nanosecond, etc. So, how did God get created?

Mace

I won't play specifics, so for basically any type of Christian they have to accept the doctrine of Genesis which signifies and places Yahweh at the top of creation.

The first few verses of Genesis could easily be said to paraphrase God's creation of time. This fits in with 99.9% of all the other philosophical arguments concerning creation.

In short, God did it. He's God. He's capable of existing outside mandatory influences necessary to the survival of a species, time is irrelevant to Him, he could circumcise a fly blindfolded. He's God.

Occam's Razor.

Osbert

He did, didn't He ?
Being Jewish and all that..

Bang

Christianity is that religion which attempts to explain the unexplainable. Given its mandate it doesn't need to be logical. It is a belief. People believe things that do not need to be proven. It is a simplistic world view; explaining things in a story book fashion through the Bible. Did God create time? Of course He did. Did God create God? Remember. A God can do anything that is why they call them gods.

Does time exist? As a concept. I think so. I was here one moment and I am here the next. What is time? Time is that thing that allows you understand the difference between being somewhere and then another. If there was no change there would be no time.

But, the rock stood still. It did not move. Therefore there is no time. Is that true?

But, you looked at the rock and then you looked at it again. What happened? Time happened. Time exists.

But, I only stared at it. I did not look again. There is no time.

How long did you stare at if for? Was it more than a second or two?

Yes, I suppose it was. I guess time was involved after all, as you say.

So, what is time then?

It is the human measurement of reality. Therefore existence is real and so is time.

The only remaining question, I think is. Did God create time? Of course he did. He created everything that we humans understand. That is the Christian point of view.

But, if there is no God we are left to ourselves to figure things out. And, that includes the meaning and existence of time. My mind allows me to do that.

The part I do not really understand is why did God make things so difficult to understand when the Bible makes things seem so simple? Is that the purpose of belief? Do I just have to believe to just understand?

When I am making a bet at the racetrack I do not listen to touts or those around me. I do my own homework and I use reason and common sense.

The Christian has already made the bet that God exists. He has made the big bet and is watching the race. Who has the better horse? Me or the Christian?

Only time will tell. We simply have to believe that time exists. We do not know if God created time, but we do know that it does exist. We just do not know if he does.

Unfortunately, for human beings the race is over when you die. And, only then will you know with any degree of certainty if God exists or not. That is what the Christian wants you to believe.

Cheerful Charlie

The bible does not mention time at all, much. But the bible does make many claims god is all powerful et al.
These are used as prooftexts god is well, all powerful. If god is all powerful, if he is soveriegn over all, he must be soveriegn over times as if he was subject to time, he could not be all powerful.

See St. Augustine's "Confessions", chapter 11 where he lays this all out.
Since god cannot be subject to time, he must have created it. For god, there is no past, no future all is now. See also Boethius "Consolations of Philosophy".

God cannot be all powerful if time is more powerful than god, and so god is said to have created time.

God is transcedent to creation and time. He is in another realm all together than the physical universe that time is part of. This has long then, been part of Catholioc dogma.

The unfortunate thing is, it means god must have created al at once. To the smallest quark in time and sopace, all or everything that makes up us and the Universe and all we do. Knowingly and with full
personal attention to the smallest details, he must decide to create or not create as his wil dictates.

What I call, omnigenesis, creation of all to the smallest detail.

So we have no free will here. And all we do is designed by god to the smallest detail.

We get the same thing if we claim god created all, and is omnsicient, all knowing.
God has to contemplate all he creates, he knows the future, he knows a universe
he creates will have a John Smith and if Smith will be good or evil. He must decide,
"Do I create a Universe with a good Smith or an Evil Smith"?

Same thing with a god trancedent to this Universe who creates all at once.

All evil then is god's doing, not ours, which shows a god also claimed to be
all good cannot exist if omniscient or omnipotent and creator of all.

Since a transcedent god out of time and creator of time is old dogma, its hard
to dismiss, unless you are a Calvinist or Lutheran and believe in predestination.
Then it doesn't matter if time drives you to extreme omnigenesis, predestination.

With omnigenesis, free will is impossible, then since free will has no meaning, doesn't
god make all men good and saved?

Cheerful Charlie

Yes, see Boethius, Consolations of Philsophy and Augustines, Confessions, book XI.
This has long ago become dogma, see Aquinas Summa Theologica.


God is transcedent to this physical universe, he created it and time.