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#61 | |||||
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The case is not as straightforward as you like to think. Quote:
The logic escapes me. Quote:
When you use the word "determine" you completely overstate the degree of certainty that these scholars can bring to their conclusions. |
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#62 | |||||
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Thats double standards, you apply to your own methodology. Ehrman stated the same, and in another link from his site, he gives a great scholarly overview that states the same. Quote:
There is nobody that explains a second century recreation of the movement with any plausibility at all. Your blindly attacking the date because it doesnt jive with your personal hobby horse, not because the date doesnt make sense. Can you with a straight face, actually claim a second century origin for Gmark? And if so when?, and if when, by who? and how? |
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#63 | |||
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Onias, let me make one thing very clear. I do not buy any conspiracy theories regarding the creation of the gospel story. No more that I would buy any conspiracy story related to the stories in the OT. These stories are what they are: A re-telling in mythological form, symbolic or prophetic form, of a Jewish interpretation of their history, or their take on their origin story. |
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#64 |
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Mary,
I think the real "conspiracy story" is to be found in the extant gospels, the ones the Romans allowed to survive (along with their editing). The real story lies deeper. We need some CSI detectives who do not accept the BS extant gospels at face value. With respect, Onias |
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#65 | |
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If there are historical reflections within that gospel story - then those historical reflections are not confined to the time of Pilate. That is the gospel story setting. A gospel story that is re-telling Hasmonean/Jewish history within a symbolic, mythological or prophetic format. Onias, we have to deal with the gospel story. It's the story that we have in our hands, so to speak. It's the gospel story that has to be evaluated for what we can dig out of it that can move forward the HJ/MJ debate. The story has to be given an explanation. It's there - like that mountain - and has to be scaled if the HJ/MJ debate is to move forward. |
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#66 | |
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I think his purpose was to achieve a total control of the Roman Empire, via an imperially appointed centralised monotheistic state religion, just like Ardashir and the Persians. εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia |
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#67 | |
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It is that very time period that we must look for Jesus of Nazareth just as we look for Pilate in the time of Tiberius as stated in the Gospels. It is corroborated that there was a character called Pontius Pilate in the time of Tiberius and this has nothing at all to do with prophecies. In fact, there is no mention at all of Jesus of Nazareth in non-apologetic sources. There is no need to invent your own history of Jesus. Let HJers and Christians invent their history of their Jesus. MJers are not inventors--they state the actual written evidence exactly as it is presented. Jesus was born after his mother became pregnant by a Holy Ghost. See Matthew 1.18 and Luke 1.26-35. Jesus of the NT did NOT exist based on the abundance of evidence. Mythological characters do NOT exist. Jesus of the NT matches Mythology. |
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#68 | |
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The first historical name to appear in the above chart is that of Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Jews. Executed in 37 b.c. by Marc Antony. It is the premise of the chart that elements from the lives of historical figures were used, by the gospel writers, in the creation of their composite gospel JC. The historical figures that are reflected within the gospel JC character are figures from different time periods. i.e. Hasmonean/Jewish history has been condensed within the gospel story.
Below is an extract from a recent article; an article suggesting that the gospel JC reflects *seditious * elements to his character. In other words - the gospel JC figure is as much a 'man of war' as a 'man of peace'. While attempts can be made to reconcile these two elements of the gospel JC - these two elements can also be used to demonstrate a composite nature to that gospel JC figure - as the above chart has set out to do. The 'man of war' element, the *seditious* element, being a reflection of the historical figure of Antigonus. Why is the Hypothesis that Jesus Was an Anti-Roman Rebel Alive and Well? Fernando Bermejo-Rubio http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/...er378008.shtml Quote:
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#69 | |||
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Jesus could not have been a real rebel. Quote:
History must be recovered from the evidence not from imagination. The story of Jesus is FIXED in the written statements of antiquity just like the claims about Satan, the Angel Gabriel or Pontius Pilate. The description of Jesus of Nazareth cannot be altered or re-worked. We can examine the claims made about Jesus but not what is imagined. The NT stories of Jesus in the Canon reflect what people of antiquity Believed. It is extremely important to understand the stories themselves as they are presented. |
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#70 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Primary residence in New York State
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Many, but not all of the gospels events and chronology are explained by Joe Atwill in his book, Caesar's Messiah. In his view and mine, much of the gospel tale is Roman satire that mocks and lampoons the Judean failed attempt to be free of the Roman yoke. Having said this, I do not agree with everything Atwill claims, but I think he is right to a significant extent. You really should read his book (or at least watch some of his YouTube videos) so we can have a broader discussion. Onias |
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