aa5874

Toto, you claimed that you were NOT referring to Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.

You were.

Toto

I was referring to the variety of Jesus' mentioned in the OP.

DCHindley

It will be in the archives, as I created the word file that contains the list on 12/24/2007.

The are 17 of them:

01. Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest. Ant 15.322
02. Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple. War 6.300
03. Jesus, or Jason – High priest. Ant 12.239
04. Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias. War 2.566, War 2.599; Life 1.066, Life 1.134
05. Jesus, brother of Onias – High priest. Ant 12.237, Ant 12.238, Ant 12.239
06. Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest. Ant 20.213, Ant 20.223
07. Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus. War 4.238, War 4.316, War 4.325
08. Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest. Ant 20.203
09. Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend. War 4.160; Life 1.193, Life 1.204
10. Jesus, [or Joshua] son of Nun – Successor to Moses. Ant 03.049, Ant 03.308; Ant 4.459
11. Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias, sallies against Vespasian's messenger Valerian. War 3.450
16. Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais, allies with Josephus. Life 1.105
12. Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, delivers to Titus precious things deposited in the temple. War 6.387
13. Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest. Ant 20.231, Ant 20.234
14. Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600 followers, sent by Ananus & Jesus to depose Josephus. Life 1.200
15. Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ. Ant 18.063
17. Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ. Ant 20.200

Ant.:

03:049 (numerous) Jesus [Joshua] son of Nun.
11:298 Jesus, (son of Eliashib), brother of John – friend of governor Bagoses.
11:299 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
11:300 Jesus, [son of Eliashib]
11:301 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
12:237 Jesus, brother of Onias III – High priest.
12:238 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Deposed as High priest in favor of Onias = Menelaus
12:239 Jesus, younger brother of Onias = Menelaus – High priest.
12:239 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Renamed Jason. Revolts against Onias = Menelaus.
15:041 Jesus, (brother of Onias III)
15:322 Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest.
17:341 Jesus, the son of Sie – High priest.
18:063 Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ.
20:200 Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ.
20:203 Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest.
20:205 Jesus, [son of Damneus] – High priest.
20:213 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20.213 Jesus, son of Damneus – Deposed as High priest.
20:223 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20:234 Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest.

War:

2:566 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
2:599 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
3:450 Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias.
3:452 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:457 Jesus, [son of Shapat] – Departs Tiberius to Taricheae
3:467 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:498 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
4:160 Jesus, son of Gamala – Best esteemed, with Ananus ben Ananus, of High priests.
4:238 Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus.
4:270 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:283 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:316 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:322 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:325 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:459 Jesus [Joshua] son of Nun.
6:114 Jesus, no patronym – High priest, deserts to Vespasian.
6:300 Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple.
6:387 Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, deserts to Titus.

Life:

1:066 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:067 Jesus, son of Sapphias – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:105 Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.
1:108 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:109 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:110 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:134 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:178 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:186 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:193 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:200 Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600, sent to depose Josephus.
1:204 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:246 Jesus, no patronym – Owned a house big as a castle. Governor of Tiberias?
1:271 Jesus, no patronym – Governor of Tiberias.
1:278 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:294 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:295 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:300 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:301 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]

DCH

PS: I think I once met you at a party on earth, but without the extra head and arm.

DCHindley

Is this gentleman a Christian? I've read (and once met) Christians who believe (like Wm. Whiston) that Josephus was a secret Christian. I have also read others who think that Josephus was biased against Christians and deliberately omitted any mention of him out of jealousy/spite/whatever.

Josephus is really just about the only contemporary (1st century CE) author outside the NT which might even mention the man. But to say that Josephus cannot be trusted about anything relating to Christian history sounds like an attempt to limit the historical evidence to the books of the NT, and them alone. Sola Scriptura and all that. No sense dirtying Jesus with the politics and social unrest of his times

DCH

Zaphod

Thank you, DC.

Is there any easy way to know which, if any of these personages would have been contemporary with the life of of the HJ?

Is there an easy way to search through the annals of other historians besides Josephus, say Philo, for similar correspondences? I am afraid I am ignorant of the skills and resources - let alone the core background knowledge - to muster such a search.

It does seem like a worthwhile project. When I first started visiting this site, I was impressed, and I am still impressed, btw, by a disconnect between how the problem of the historical silence on the HJ was perceived by the erudite (here and elsewhere) and how it is perceived by those newly initiated to the issue of the historicity of JC.

Here, it is reduced to being just another unresolved question like so many others. However, to someone coming upon this issue afresh it is startling news indeed, and is a foundation-shaking revelation. Which, I will maintain - is exactly how it should be regarded.

I think that the apologetic-minded have done a nefariously good job of minimizing the perceived relevance and importance of this silence problem, by asserting that there would be such a low expectation of discovery of historical references. But is this true?

I can tell you that the very fact that the vast majority of scholars blithely acknowledge that the 'real' JC could not be the man depicted in the Bible - this alone - would be pretty darned explosive information for the general public if it ever escaped from the confines of academia.

So, since this issue of historical silence could have devastating ramifications to Christian faith in the real world, one has to ask - just how accurate is this idea that we would not expect to find historical reference to the HJ?

I don't recall ever seeing a thread here devoted to a catalogue of the trivial personages that WERE noticed and preserved by contemporaneous writers. Do we have information on beggars, musicians, artists for example from the period 50 years on each side of AD 1? Do we have minor politicians, rabbis, mendicants, orators, athletes, marital scandals.... but no Jesus Christ?

Thanks again for your efforts to reproduce the list. It is not, however, the list that I remember, which if I can trust my memory, was fairly recent, much shorter, and had the life dates and a description of the notoriety of the various agitators. What I do seem to remember (?!) was that several of them were, indeed, contemporaneous to the HJ. If that is true, as you can see from my initial link to the conversation at WEIT, that that information would be considered as very significant by many.

PS - Was that the party at Islington? ;D

DCHindley

The rabble rouser list of Jesuses (sp?) would be:

Now there were other rabble rousers, some of whom had the same names as figures from the NT, such as

Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE) War 2.56 and Antiquities 17.271-272.

Simon of Peraea (4 BCE) War 2.57-59 and Antiquities 17.273-277; Tacitus, Histories, 5.9.

Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.60-65 and Jewish Antiquities 17.278-284.

Judas the Galilean (6 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433 and Jewish Antiquities 18.1-10 and 18.23; Acts of the apostles 5.37.

John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
Sources: Mark 1.2-9, 6.14-29; Luke 1.5-25, 39-80; Q's 'first Baptist block' = Matthew 3.7-12 || Luke 3.7-9, 15-18; Q's 'second Baptist block' = Luke 7.18-35 || Matthew 11.2-19; Luke's own tradition, 3.10-14; John 1.19-42; Acts 19.1-7; Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, 18.109-116.

The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87.

King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 19.338-353 and the Acts of the apostles 1219b-23.

Theudas (about 45 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98 and Acts of the apostles 5.36.

The Egyptian prophet (between 52 and 58 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.259-263 and Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171; Acts of the apostles 21.38.

An unnamed prophet (c.59 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.188.

Menahem (66 CE)
Sources: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433-450.

John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War books 2-6.

Vespasian (67 CE)
Sources: Cassius Dio, Roman History, 65=66.1.4, 65=66.8.1; Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 3.399-404 and 6.310-315; Suetonius, Life of Vespasian 4.5; Tacitus, Annals, 15.47; Tacitus, Histories, 5.13; Zonaras, Epitome 11.16.

Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War books 4-7.

Jonathan the weaver (73 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 7.437-450.

Lukuas (115 CE)
Sources: Appian of Alexandria, Civil wars, 2.90; Appian of Alexandria, Trajan's Arabian War, fragment 1; Cassius Dio, Roman History, 68.32, 69.12-13; Eusebius, History of the church 4.2.1-5; Corpus Papyrorum Judaicarum 435, 436, 438, 439, 444 and 450.

Simon ben Kosiba (132-135 CE)
Sources: 'Abot de Rabbi Nathan A 38.3; Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 57a-58b; Genesis Rabbah 65.21 (on 27.22); Lamentations Rabbah 1.16 §45 and 2.2 §4; Palestinian Talmud, Ta'anit 4.5 (commenting on Mishna, Ta'anit 4.6); Palestinian Talmud, Nedarim 3.8 (commenting on Mishna, Nedarim 3.10-11a); Seder Elijah Rabbah 151; letters from Wadi Murabba`at (ed. P. Benoit, J.T. Milik and R. de Vaux); fifteen letters from Nahal Hever (ed. Yigael Yadin); Appian of Alexandria, Syrian war 50; Cassius Dio, Roman history 69.12.1-14.3; Eusebius, History of the church 4.5.2 and 4.6.1-4; Fronto, Letter to Marcus Aurelius; Historia Augusta, "Hadrian", 14.2; Hieronymus, Commentary on Isaiah 2.15; Justin the Martyr, First apology 31.5-6 and Dialogue with the Jew Trypho 108.1-3

All of the info about the other rabble rousers were stolen from here.

A nod of my hat to you for managing to pick up that hot chick Tricia. I couldn't get anywhere with her. :dancy:

DCH

Zaphod

I got lucky - the odds were a Trillian to one against. Almost Infinitely Improbable.