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Who's disputing polytheism?


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Chris Weimer

Exactly, no one disputes polytheism in Ancient Israel, or Ancient Judah, but Abraham was not one of them. The gods were Yahweh, El, Asherah, Ba'al etc... the normal pantheon of Canaanite gods.

Clivedurdle

It feels like there is too strong a distinction between gods and humans here, we have in Genesis examples of gods sleeping with humans, Greek heroes are commonly part human part god - Jesus is a classic example (hmm have I unconsciously assumed Jesus is a Greek hero?!).

Another mythical figure like Abraham is very likely to be an admixture of human and god.

I assume we are all agreed Abraham is mythical, so what is the problem with him being a god? Gods and humans are all part of the ecology of how they thought and wrote. Mother earth concepts are eminently reasonable! It would be amazing if these very common shamanic elements were not found in early Judaism.

What is the problem with stating explicitly that these religions that has evolved into the things we know today have very strong roots in magic, shaminism and polytheism?

Chris Weimer

There is a distinction. Hercules wouldn't rain wrath upon you for not worshipping him, yet both Zeus and Yahweh would. :thumbs: Mythical, yes, almost demigod, probably, but deity, no.

Clivedurdle

Evidence please for this distinction! It sounds like quite modern thinking of tidying things up in tidy boxes.

Jesus is alleged to have got pretty cross, Moses and Pharoah - just because a human says it is a god being angry, should we believe them?

Chris Weimer

Hrm, very well. Show me one place where Abraham, Hercules, or any other lesser divinity punishes those who do not worship them. Now, I can point all day long passages where Yahweh will punish the wicked, or where Zeus floods the countryside, or where Athene punishes Arachne for boasting, because they were deities. Is there one place where Abraham, or even Hercules, is actually called God? Di immortales! I think not.

andrewcriddle

I agree with your general point but Hercules (Heracles) may be a bad example. Originally (eg in the Iliad) Heracles is a worshipped hero (ie demigod) but in later Greek mythology he becomes after death a full blown God and is referred to as hHROS ThEOS 'hero God' by Pindar, (IIUC Nemean Odes 3: 22. )

See also interpolation in Hesiod 'Catalogue of Women' See also probably partly interpolated passage in Odyssey Book 11 The late attitude to Heracles is however apparently unique among Greek heroes.

Andrew Criddle

Sheshbazzar

The phrase that is rendered as "I AM" occurs in Ex 3:14 and is not just the Name,"Yah", which is used many more times throughout the Scriptures as a proper Name, particularly in Psalms, and in poetical sections.
The phrase that is rendered as "I AM", is in the Hebrew letters arranged
"aleph-heh-yod-heh" which, if we consistently apply the same principals of pronunciation that we employ in the pronouncing of such names and words as "Adam", "Abram", and "Amen" would be rendered into our alphabet as.
"A-H-Y-H", the pronunciation of the "YH" is rather incontestable, being retained in the well known injunction "hallelu YAH" and of course as the commonly vocalized prefix or suffix to hundreds of Hebrew names.
(see also Strong's 3050)
The verb form of "YH" occurs thousands of times within the Scriptures, and its first employment is in Genesis 1:3 as the "yod-heh-yod" rendered as
"let (there) be", (actually a less apparent form of it occurs in 1:2 also)
How the "aleph-heh"-"yod-heh" is pronounced is very much bound up with religious traditions and with the individuals religious convictions.
The Masoretic vowel pointing consistently renders the "existence" verbs, "am", "was", and "shall be" with the "hirek yodh" which causes a pronunciation of "y-h" in all of those instances to be vocalized as "yeh", thus as it is pointed in Genesis 1:3, it would be pronounced as "yeh'hee".
I believe this particular pointing may have arisen out of the Jewish squeamishness against inadvertently speaking "Ha-Shem"-"the Name" or even being thought to have openly spoken it, with all the attendant troubles that would have entailed under the Jews interpretation of "blasphemy" in latter OT and 'Masoretic' times. (shades of Mel Gibsons "History of the World part 1")

My personal practice is to pronounce the "yod-heh" as "yah" in all instances, thus in Genesis 1:3, I pronounce "yah'hee" and thus directly connect it with Exodus 3:14, which I vocalize as "a'hah'-yah", and relate to the Name "Yah".
The "weh" suffix in the full form of the Name, has no direct etymology with the phrase "a'hah'-yah asher a'hah'-yah" in Ex.314, and therefor it is not the suffix "weh" which makes it mean, - "who I am".
It is my persuasion that the etymology of the suffix "weh" is from the verb
"heh-weh-hey" or "ha'uweh" (see Strong's 1934) meaning to "exist" "cause" and "bring fourth. or as I would loosely translate the sense of the Name "Yahweh", "I AM causing (to exist)" in all senses and tenses, the past, present, and future, which to me sums up all that "is reality" or "is existing" or "is the truth", in being "reality in action".

Clivedurdle

I recommend having a look at what Winkler wrote about Judaic Shamanism before condemning it out of hand.

Jewish Shamanism

Detailed textual criticism and discussion of meaning of words in Hebrew and discussions of distinctions between gods and men is missing the point - that Judaism is a quite ordinary religion, and that over history the shamanic elements have been repressed for various reasons.

Winkler has done something very important in tying Judaism to shamanism.

The link between yah weh and ying yang is a logical connection - they are both attempts to understand our human condition in the shamanic tradition. We seem to be accepting polytheism, why the resistance to the logical extension, that shamanism will be a key part?

Chris Weimer

I fail to see the connection to the deity of Abraham or Yahweh =Yingyang.