John Kesler

First of all, I'm not asserting that Satan actually was the serpent in the Garden of Eden, just that the belief that he was existed. But to answer your questions, I am going to quote from but one scholarly work--the reason for which will be clear at the end of the post. The emphasis is mine.

What work is this from? Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, pp 1169-1170, entry: Satan. It appears, then, that your disagreement isn't with me so much as it is with the fellow who wrote this entry--a guy by the name of Jeffrey B. Gibson!

Jeffrey Gibson

What I actually wrote and what I actually submitted to the editors of the EDB at the line which begins with "Accounting for this are"

"... an identification of Satan in the intertestamental period with the serpent of Eden (2 Enoch 31.3; Life of Adam and Eve 14-16; possibly also Wis. 2.24; compare Rom. 16.20; Rev. 20.2) and with the chaos dragon of the creation myth;

The editor eliminated my far more cautious ad qualified assertion -- without my knowledge -- in order to bring the word count of the article down to a predetermined length.

You may also wish to note that in the printed EDB entry on "Devil" which I also wrote and submitted at the same time I wrote and submitted my entry on "Satan", you'll find the following statement

If, as often claimed, Wis. 2:24, bears an allusion to Gen. 3 and its story of the Fall, then diabolos, may also stand as a cipher for the beguiling serpent of Eden.

In other words, quite contrary to what you (gleefully and smarmily?) assert here, I have never ever committed myself to the position on Wisdom 2:24 you (wrongfully and on the basis of incomplete evidence) attribute to me.

Nor do I make the claim in the material you quoted above that the idea of Satan as in opposed to God was something that was widespread in Judaism in the first century. To get me to say that, you've engaged in the singularly underhanded, respect killing, and and slimy tactic of selective quotation.

Would you care to reproduce in full the two paragraphs of material that appears between my words "this figure was regarded primarily as one who tests the pious" and "the emphasis upon Satan as primarily "the evil one" hostile to God and his people tends to predominate" that you have left out and which gives a far more qualifying context that you here present it as having to my claim (also ignored) that in the New Testament period (and then both absent in Pharisaic Judaism and primarily within the NT itself) "the emphasis upon Satan as primarily "the evil one" hostile to God and his people tends to predominate".

And you seem to be unaware that since I wrote what you quote, I have publicly distanced myself from the claim -- and even noted here! -- that Satan is portrayed in intertestamental literature and in Apocalyptic Judaism as one who is opposed to God, let alone as one who stands at the head of a diabolic army that has been raised to wage war on God and his elect.

In fact, I have announced publicly that I think scholars who make this claim are wrong, since they are working under an unwarranted and, as the DSS show, demonstrably false assumption that in intertestamental Judaism Belial and Satan were thought to be one and the same, and because all such claims that that the claims that Satan was thought to be at the head of an army opposed to God are due to an illegitimate transfer of things that Judaism thought about Beliar to Satan.

So ... Is there a lesson in this? Yes. It would be wise for you to do more research than is apparent you actually do before you post the confidence tinged claims you post here, not to mention before you accuse me of contradicting myself.

Jeffrey

LogicandReason

Being inculcated a Christian, the concept of Satan taught to me was an evil character who ruled the earth. This Satan (or devil) was blamed for all horrific acts. I was told that Satan wanted to “get” my soul. As a child, Satan was an object of my fear (so were people babbling/speaking in tongues). When I read the Christian Bible today, as I shared in my opening posit, I fail to find Milton’s Satan (thought that is a good example of the one I was instructed about). Jeffrey, does a Satan figure appear throughout the ancient cultures (pre-Christian) and did the Christians simply borrow this concept from the OT? I noticed some non-conical referenced scripture that I need to become familiar with.

True, and perhaps you can help me Jeffrey. I do not know of a statistic that measure a person’s or society’s ratio of accepting blame for actions committed versus blaming the prince of darkness. I do know many Christians who blame bad events and poor personal behavior on Satan (verifying their belief in such an entity). Example: General Klimp, Commander of the USMC in Mogadishu, who saw the face of Satan when a cloud smoke billowed above the city (in the battle remembered in the film “Blackhawk Down”).

LogicandReason

I'm in over my head (which is why I ask the question to begin this thread...I'm here to learn). That noted, Job 1:8 catches my attention as God appears to challenge Satan (without provacation). So that there is no ambiguity about what I believe, I belileve in no metaphysical beings or actions in the universe...I'm a naturalist. I'm also the father of four children. Never would I hold one of my loved children up as an example for an enemy to destroy; but God seems to provoke a challenge with Satan over a man who is completely faithful to him. Why? I say total caprice.

In verse 8 God says that Job fears him (God). Why does a righteous man need to fear God? For that matter, why would any creation worship its creator unless the creator was a megalomaniac?

Satan challenges back in verse 9, "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan goes on to challenge in verse 10 that God protects and blesses Job. Rather than saying yes, Job deserves these rewards for his work and behavior, God willingly "bets" his follower to make a point to his known advocate. If that is not caprice and megalomania, what is it?

Jeffrey Gibson

So am I. But what this has to do with understanding what is being said in Job (note: not whether or not what is being said is true) is beyond me.

Umm ... is that what God does? And is the Satan of Job god's enemy?

I still have no understanding of what you mean by "caprice".

And in any case, the reason God allows Satan to afflict Job is that God has absolute confidence that Job will not react as the Satan thinks he will.

[QUOTE]In verse 8 God says that Job fears him (God). Why does a righteous man need to fear God? For that matter, why would any creation worship its creator unless the creator was a megalomaniac?

In other words, Satan is saying that Job's faithfulness is calculated and prudential, not born out of true love for God, and that if it were put to the test, it would be shown as such, and thus a dishonour to God whose honour Satan is absolutely dedicated to protect and uphold.

You are making the assumption that the word "fear" here means what it connotes to a modern Englsih speaker. It doesn't.

May I suggest you find and read a good commentary on Job to get your bearings not only on what the heavenly court scene is all about, but what the particular theological stance is on how the universe works and why people suffer that the book of Job explores and finds wanting?

Jeffrey

LogicandReason

Any suggestions?

Minimalist

Satan was borrowed from Zoroastrianism....most likely when the "Jews" were "freed" from exile in Babylon by the Persian....and Zoroastrian... king, Cyrus.

What better way to impress your new pal, the king, than by copying part of his own religion and making it your own?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

Jeffrey Gibson

Job A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary by Marvin H. Pope

Alonso, Schökel, L. and Dias, J. L. Sicre. Job: Commentario teológico y literario. Neuva Biblia Española. Madrid: Ediciones Cristiandad, 1983.

*Anderson, Francis I. Job: An Introduction and Commentary. Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries. Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1976, 1980.

Archer, Gleason L., Jr. The Book of Job: God’s Answer to the Problem of Undeserved Suffering. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1982.

Baker, Wesley C. More than a man Can Take: A Study of Job. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1966.

Barnes, Albert. Notes, Critical, Illustrative, and Practical, on the Book of Job. 2 vols. Glasgow: Blackie & Son, 1847. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1950.

Blackwood, Andrew W., Jr. Out of the Whirlwind. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1959.

Clines, David J. A. Job 1--20. Word Biblical Commentary. Vol. 17. Waco: Word Books, Publisher, 1989.

Davidson, A. B. The Book of Job. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1903.

Delitzsch, F. Job. Volume IV. Two Volumes in One. Translated by Francis Bolton. Commentary on the Old Testament. 10 vols. N.p.; reprint ed., Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1982.

*Dhorme, Édouard. A Commentary on the Book of Job. Translated by Harold Knight, with prefatory notes by H. H. Rowley and preface by Francis I. Anderson. New York: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1926, 1967, 1984.

Driver, Samuel R. and Gray, George Buchanan. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Book of Job. The International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1921.

Ellison, H. L. A Study of Job: From Tragedy to Triumph. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1971.

Glatzer, N. “The Book of Job and Its Interpreters” pp. 197-221. In Biblical Motifs, Origins and Transformations. Edited by Alexander Altmann. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1966.

Guillaume, Alfred. Studies in the Book of Job. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1968.

Gordis, Robert. The Book of God and Man: A Study of Job. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1965.

________. The Book of Job: Commentary, New Translation and Special Studies. New York: Jewish Theological Seminary of America, 1978.

Green, William Henry. The Argument of the Book of Job Unfolded. 1874. Reprint. Minneapolis: James & Klock Christian Publishers, 1977.

*Hartley, John. The Book of Job. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988.

*Habel, Norman. The Book of Job: A Commentary. Old Testament Library. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1985.

Howard, David M. How Come God? Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Co., 1972.

Johnson, L. D. Israel’s Wisdom: Learn and Live. Nashville: Boardman Press, 1975.

________. Out of the Whirlwind: The Major Message of the Book of Job. Nashville: Broadman Press, 1971.

King, Albion Roy. The Problem of Evil: Christian Concepts and the Book of Job. New York: Ronald Press Company, 1952.

Morgan, G. Campbell. The Answers of Jesus to Job. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1973.

Polzin, Robert. Biblical Structuralism: Method and Subjectivity in the Study o f Ancient Texts. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1977.

Reichert, Victor E. Job. London: Socino Press, 1946.

Rowley, Harold H. The Book of Job. New Century Bible Commentary. Revised edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1980 (1970, 1976).

Sanders, Paul S. Twentieth Centuary Interpretations of the Book of Job: A Collection of Critical Essays Edited by Paul S. Sanders. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1968.

Schaper, Robert N. Why, Me, God? Glendale, CA: Regal Books, 1974.

Smick, Elmer B. “Job.” In The Expositor’s Bible Commentary 841-1060. Vol. 4. Grand Rapids: Regency Reference Library, Zondervan, 1988.

Stedman, Ray C. Expository Studies in Job: Behind Suffering. Waco: Waco Books, Publisher, 1981.

Terrien, Samuel L. Job: Poet of Existence. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1957.

Thomas, David. Book of Job: Expository and Homiletical Commentary. 1878. Reprint. Grand Rapids: Gregel Publications, 1982.

Tur-Sinai, N. H. (H. Torezyner). The Book of Job: A New Commentary. Revised edition. Jerusalem: Kiryat Sepher, 1967.

Tsevat, Matitiahu. “The Meaning of the Book of Job.” In The Meaning of the Book of Job and Other Biblical Studies. New York: KTAV, 1980.

Westermann, Claus. The Structure of the Book of Job: A Form-Critical Analysis. Philadelphia: fortress Press, 1981.

Zerafa, Peter Paul. The Wisdom of God in the Book of Job. Rome: Herder, 1978.

Zuck, Roy. Job. Everyman’s Bible Commentary. Chicago: Moody Press, 1982.

________. “Job.” In The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty: Old Testament 715-777. Edited by John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck. Wheaton: Victor Books, 1985.
Periodicals and Unpublished Materials

MacKenzie, R. A. F. “The Transformation of Job.” Biblical Theology Bulletin 9 (1979): 51-57.

Rowley, H. H. “The Book of Job and Its Meaning.” Bulletin of the John Rylands Library 41 (1958): 162-207.

Malachi151

Neither one of these are Satan. Christians later identified these characters with Satan, but Jews don't today and never have identified these characters with Satan.

Jeffrey Gibson

FWIW, this older view of where "the Satan" (especially of Job) as "borrowed from Zoroastrianisn" and as Persian in origin no longer has much scholarly support and is viewed as misguided. For a review and critique of the arguments that were once put forward in support of it, see Kelly's Satan: A Biography (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Jeffrey