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Old 02-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #261
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And then again in Eusebius's Demonstatio Evangelica:

Quote:
Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture, sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father. Thus he says:

"10. And Jacob went forth ... to Charran, 11. and came to a certain place, and he slept there. . . . And he |27 took of the stones of the place, and put it at his head, and lay down to sleep in that place, 12. and he dreamed: and behold, a ladder fixed on the earth whose top reached to heaven, and the angels of God ascended and descended on it. 13. And the Lord stood upon it, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: fear not, the earth, the land on which thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed: 14 and thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth."

To which he adds:

"16. And Jacob arose in the morning, and took the stone, which he had put under his head, and set it up as a pillar."

Then further on he calls this God and Lord Who appeared to him the Angel of God. For Jacob says:

"11. For the Angel of God said to me in a dream, Jacob. And I said, What is it? "

And then:

"12. I have seen, he says, all that Laban does to thee. I am the God that was seen by thee in the place of God, where thou anointedst for me there a pillar, and thou vowedst to me there a vow."

This same being who appeared to Abraham is called Lord and God. He teaches the saint mysteriously of His Father's rule, and speaks some things, as it were, of another God, which I will examine in their place [1.5]
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:39 PM   #262
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This is same old fashioned nonsensical interpretation of something so simple where an angel speaks on behalf of God, reciting his words on his behalf. Nothing mysterious about this at all.....
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:19 PM   #263
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Philo is our earliest comprehensive explanation of the Pentateuch and it is shocking that he should think that Jacob experiences 'successive' back to back revelations of the 'Lord' and then 'God' in Genesis. All the Church Fathers agree that Jesus is the 'God' of Genesis 28. The kabbalists call him 'yesh' but it is the same thing IMO (= yeshu). The part I don't get is where God formerly revealed himself as Lord to Jacob. Genesis 28 is the Jacob's theophany.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #264
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I cannot answer for Philo's ideas, ideology or interpretation. He is neither Rashi, Nahmanides, Maimonides, a Targum, a Midrash, Rabbi Chaim Ben Attar, Malbim , Rabbi David Kimchi, or Don Yitzchak Abarbanel.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:36 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Philo is our earliest comprehensive explanation of the Pentateuch and it is shocking that he should think that Jacob experiences 'successive' back to back revelations of the 'Lord' and then 'God' in Genesis. All the Church Fathers agree that Jesus is the 'God' of Genesis 28. The kabbalists call him 'yesh' but it is the same thing IMO (= yeshu). The part I don't get is where God formerly revealed himself as Lord to Jacob. Genesis 28 is the Jacob's theophany.
No comment for me.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:43 PM   #266
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From the Sanctum Pascha

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This is the ladder of Jacob, the way of angels, at the summit of which the Lord is truly established. This is my tree, wide as the firmament, which extends from earth to the heavens, with its immortal trunk established between heaven and earth; it is the pillar of the universe, the support of the whole world, the joint of the world holding together the variety of human nature and riveted by the invisible bolts of the Spirit, so that it may remain fastened to the divinity and impossible to detach. Its top touches the highest heavens, its roots are planted in the earth and in the midst its giant arms embrace the ever present breaths of air. It is Anonymous homily wholly in all things and in all places.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:03 PM   #267
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My god. One has to wonder how many different ancient religious fables and traditions needed to be raided to put that particular block of syncretised religious gibberish together.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:05 AM   #268
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My god. One has to wonder how many different ancient religious fables and traditions needed to be raided to put that particular block of syncretised religious gibberish together.
The Dual Tradition dies hard.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:57 AM   #269
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But your desire to make religion about something firm is what is the problem. many atheists think that by debating apologists they're getting at the truth of religion. But this kind of dishonesty is displayed by both sides. the jewish religion is about reconciling a non existent God with a physical universe. god create out of nothing because he is non existent. we see this in philo it continues through the christian heretics and then the jewish mystics. whether you like it or not it is what it is or in fact it is what it isnt ie a godhead rooted in in something other than being and existence
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:01 AM   #270
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I well recognize that religion has always existed as an amorphous pile of half-digested straw suspended in the glutinous slime of currently popular opinion and flights of fancy.
Why anyone would build their imaginary castles and kingdoms out this steaming pile of shit is something they alone can pretend to answer.
Meanwhile I don't build with it, just observe its composition and its consistency, while shoveling it aside to reach its bottom, and clear a path forward through it.
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