Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 02-28-2005, 12:15 PM

Brought up in a Christian home, I assumed my parents and their friends were telling me the truth when they said there was a god. But when I sought god, I found an empty room, and when god lost relevance to my life, I began to ask questions I'd never thought of before, like if there was a real god, everyone would agree - because they'd know - what it wanted. I realised that people's ideas of god differ because god is inside people's heads - their imaginations. Gods are cultural and social and personal constructs.

I wondered what sort of an entity could exist for eternity and then create the Universe; if it was outside the universe, as it had to be in order to create it, where was it? If there wasn't a Universe for it to be in, there couldn't be space/time. So god didn't exist in time. If he didn't exist in time, he had no time to start creation.

The creator god is a primitive myth, invented to solve a problem (How-Did-It-All-Begin?) which many find intollerable; the after-life is a similar myth, invented to solve another intollerbale problem - that of non-existence.

But why fear death? It has happened to every single living creature that's ever existed, except for the teeny weeny proportion which happen still to be alive. It is absolutely normal. Completely run-of-the-mill.
We die? So what?
Many people die when they aren't ready to die and that's sad; many die when they can't wait to die because they're just tired out. Falling into the arms of death is like falling into the arms of dreamless sleep, I believe. I don't mind the prospect at all. I certainly don't need to believe that I'm going to go on for ever and ever and ever. (And what part of me could, anyway? My soul?
What is my soul? Where is my soul? Is it intelligent? Does it have morals? Can it speak? Can it think? You tell me. No don't.This post is not intented to provoke a reply- just thoughts.)

regis · 03-04-2005, 01:51 AM

To quote Morgan Freeman in The Big Bounce:

"God's just an imaginary friend for grownups"

(which is rather funny cuz Morgan was God in Bruce Almighty)

I guess we just don't need any imaginary friends . . .

:devil1:

colin · 03-04-2005, 06:03 AM

Welcome to the forum, CC!

Quote:

I must admit that I don't know about this off the top of my head and will look into it.

That's how it starts.

Questions and research are good.
Does your 17 year old know about iidb.org? Perhaps you could steer her/him to this site so he/she can do some personal searching? :thumbs:

Ego · 03-04-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Convert

Hello.

I've been a Catholic for ten years, and raised my two sons that way, but unfortunately my 17 year old desires to leave the Church and and not only questions Catholicism, but the existence of God.

I can think of times in my life, even before finding religion, when I had doubts about God, but never a disbelief.

Just would like to know from some who do not believe in God, why they do not, and what would change their mind.

Do you see God's existence as an impossibilty or something for which there could never be sufficient proof?

Do you have any problem with the idea that things exist? To me, if I were an athiest, I would have trouble with why there is something instead of nothing. Of course from a believer's perspective it is hard to comprehend how a God could be "always."

Do you fear death and the idea that you will lose your consciousness, or do you see some alternative or some other way to "live on," than the Christian principle of an eternal soul and an eventual resurrected body?

If your 17 year old son is any thing like me, then he may never of really believed in this whole god thing.

I was raised as a catholic thoughout my life, but to be quite honest I never really believed in anything that was being preached. By the time I reached 16 I was more agnostic than anything, unsure as to whether there is a god or not, and then after somethinking about the issue I turned atheist at 17.

Perhaps you should recommend to your son that he should do a philosophy degree, it might be of interest. If not then just let him lead his own life, he won't turn into an immoral heathen killing a raping, he'll just be another person who doesn't believe in God.

As for the whole death thing, personally I think that you should worry about the here and now, and not get hung up on death, if it happens it happen, whether I'll go into an afterlife (such an idea seems bizzare to me) or not doesn't matter.

Anyway, don't worry about your son turning atheist/agnostic, he's 17 and I'm quite sure he make his own decisions in life now.

Evoken · 03-04-2005, 01:34 PM

Greetings Catholic Convert,

Good to see a fellow Catholic around here. I am currently doing my RCIA and will be finally Confirmed(because I am already baptized) on April.

I would recommend that you let your son find his way on his own. Do not try to force things and make him stick to Catholicism if he does not wants to. If he has questions try to answer him the best you can but don't jump on him harashly with threats of Hell fire and the like, that will just make him rebel against the faith.

Let him explore, always of course, making sure that he does not gets into anything that is harmful to him. I know this will be much better for him from personal experience, my mother is a Catholic but I was never forced into the faith and came to The Church on my own and also while being living away from her. I feel that the journey was well worth it and on each of the stages that I went thru I found something positive and while they also had their short commings those are lessons which also helped me see things much better.

So, I think that your son, also needs his journey. Think about what you said in one of your posts, it is only ten years since you joined The Church, you too had your journey.

jbernier · 03-06-2005, 06:45 AM

Catholic Convert,

First, let me say that I appreciate your willingness to talk to atheists about their atheism. Too often people will read about other people's belief systems rather than talk to them directly.

Something to keep in mind is that I have yet to find a 17 year old kid who does not question just about everything. The late teens through to the mid-20s are the time when we really define who we want to become. At age 27 I just now feel like I'm really coming out the other end of that process. Of course, the process never really ends; but I think that throughout one's adolescence and early twenties the process is particularly intense as this is the time when one leaves home, starts a career, etc.

It might not be easy to think this way but, you know, the fact that your son is asking these questions is probably healthy. That is, it shows that he's engaging in the process that he should be at his age: that is, the process of defining his own identity.

Astreja · 03-06-2005, 07:27 PM

<snip> revised version below

Astreja · 03-06-2005, 07:44 PM

The Judeo-Christian god is completely irrelevant to my way of life. There may or may not be such a being... At this point, I have no reason to care if that particular god exists or not. There is nothing in Biblical morality that hasn't been said better in other belief systems such as Buddhism.

Hypothetical scenario: Alleged Biblical deity descends to Earth with really cool special effects, pyrotechnics and apparent violations of laws of physics.

It: "I am the Lord your..."

Me: "Hey, *I* didn't vote for you."

It: "Obey me or suffer the consequences."

Me: (shrugs) "Give it your best shot... Bully. You couldn't even save your own son. And where the Hel were you when King Olaf was holding my relatives' sons hostage to force them to convert to Christianity? Don't even get me started on Giordano Bruno and that mess in Wurzberg..."

Proving the existence of God is a non-issue for me. But, given the shoddy track record of Christianity on this planet, I am passionate about resisting it to the end.

</rant>

I don't think one could ever sufficiently prove that anyone or anything was indeed a god, rather than "just" a being with advanced technology.

I'm not overly concerned about things existing or not existing, or suddenly changing from one state to the other. Even considering that the solid matter around us is >99.9% empty space doesn't throw me for much of a loop. I work with what I have near at hand, and am not overly concerned about the state of the universe in the distant past or distant future.

Death is another non-issue for me. In a large (not necessarily infinite) universe, eventually my ideas will recur in another thinking apparatus somewhere. Taking Descartes' "Cogito, ergo sum" to another level, wherever my thoughts occur is where I will happen to be. Or not. Not particularly interested in personal immortality, reincarnation, or other anthropomorphised "second chances" for my consciousness, because I'm not even the same person I was five minutes ago.

thebeave · 03-07-2005, 11:33 AM

Catholic Convert,
I assume that you love your son, regardless of which religious path he takes in life. That said, I wonder if you have considered the following: Let's say your son, using his "God-given" intellect, has thought deeply and honestly about his God beliefs, and, unlike you, rejects Jesus Christ as his saviour. Though I don't know your specific beliefs, the Bible, as interpreted by many, implies that your son will not join you in eternal heaven, years down the road. And in fact, many Bible literalists will tell you that your son, despite being a good, loving person, will be living an eternity of torture and pain in hell. There are Biblical passages supporting this notion. Once in heaven, will you be comfortable with the notion that your son will soon be in hell for all eternity? Will you feel even just a little guilt for worshipping, for decades, a monster who would do such a thing to a good, kind-hearted person you raised with your own blood, sweat and tears?

Sorry to be so blunt, but I really think that you need to think about this.

MadPhatCat · 03-07-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Convert

Just would like to know from some who do not believe in God, why they do not, and what would change their mind.

Some big ridiculously impossible miracles.. and even them I wouldn't be sure, some hyper advanced aliens could just be behind it.

Quote:

Do you see God's existence as an impossibilty or something for which there could never be sufficient proof?

It is possible there is some conscious 'external' agent that created the universe (which means it is possible there is more in existence than this universe), but there's no evidence for this. Also, let me add that certain Gods as defined in certain religions truly are impossible.

Quote:

Do you fear death and the idea that you will lose your consciousness, or do you see some alternative or some other way to "live on," than the Christian principle of an eternal soul and an eventual resurrected body?

I still fear death... and people may start living a lot longer, but forever ain't gonna happen.

03-04-2005, 01:51 AM	#142
regis Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: calgary, ab Posts: 690	so, you tell me To quote Morgan Freeman in The Big Bounce: "God's just an imaginary friend for grownups" (which is rather funny cuz Morgan was God in Bruce Almighty) I guess we just don't need any imaginary friends . . . :devil1:

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02-28-2005, 12:15 PM	#141
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Brought up in a Christian home, I assumed my parents and their friends were telling me the truth when they said there was a god. But when I sought god, I found an empty room, and when god lost relevance to my life, I began to ask questions I'd never thought of before, like if there was a real god, everyone would agree - because they'd know - what it wanted. I realised that people's ideas of god differ because god is inside people's heads - their imaginations. Gods are cultural and social and personal constructs. I wondered what sort of an entity could exist for eternity and then create the Universe; if it was outside the universe, as it had to be in order to create it, where was it? If there wasn't a Universe for it to be in, there couldn't be space/time. So god didn't exist in time. If he didn't exist in time, he had no time to start creation. The creator god is a primitive myth, invented to solve a problem (How-Did-It-All-Begin?) which many find intollerable; the after-life is a similar myth, invented to solve another intollerbale problem - that of non-existence. But why fear death? It has happened to every single living creature that's ever existed, except for the teeny weeny proportion which happen still to be alive. It is absolutely normal. Completely run-of-the-mill. We die? So what? Many people die when they aren't ready to die and that's sad; many die when they can't wait to die because they're just tired out. Falling into the arms of death is like falling into the arms of dreamless sleep, I believe. I don't mind the prospect at all. I certainly don't need to believe that I'm going to go on for ever and ever and ever. (And what part of me could, anyway? My soul? What is my soul? Where is my soul? Is it intelligent? Does it have morals? Can it speak? Can it think? You tell me. No don't.This post is not intented to provoke a reply- just thoughts.)

03-04-2005, 01:34 PM	#145
Evoken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ............. Posts: 2,914	Greetings Catholic Convert, Good to see a fellow Catholic around here. I am currently doing my RCIA and will be finally Confirmed(because I am already baptized) on April. I would recommend that you let your son find his way on his own. Do not try to force things and make him stick to Catholicism if he does not wants to. If he has questions try to answer him the best you can but don't jump on him harashly with threats of Hell fire and the like, that will just make him rebel against the faith. Let him explore, always of course, making sure that he does not gets into anything that is harmful to him. I know this will be much better for him from personal experience, my mother is a Catholic but I was never forced into the faith and came to The Church on my own and also while being living away from her. I feel that the journey was well worth it and on each of the stages that I went thru I found something positive and while they also had their short commings those are lessons which also helped me see things much better. So, I think that your son, also needs his journey. Think about what you said in one of your posts, it is only ten years since you joined The Church, you too had your journey.

03-06-2005, 06:45 AM	#146
jbernier Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: ON, Canada Posts: 1,011	Catholic Convert, First, let me say that I appreciate your willingness to talk to atheists about their atheism. Too often people will read about other people's belief systems rather than talk to them directly. Something to keep in mind is that I have yet to find a 17 year old kid who does not question just about everything. The late teens through to the mid-20s are the time when we really define who we want to become. At age 27 I just now feel like I'm really coming out the other end of that process. Of course, the process never really ends; but I think that throughout one's adolescence and early twenties the process is particularly intense as this is the time when one leaves home, starts a career, etc. It might not be easy to think this way but, you know, the fact that your son is asking these questions is probably healthy. That is, it shows that he's engaging in the process that he should be at his age: that is, the process of defining his own identity.

03-06-2005, 07:27 PM	#147
Astreja Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 2,946	<snip> revised version below

03-06-2005, 07:44 PM	#148
Astreja Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 2,946	The Judeo-Christian god is completely irrelevant to my way of life. There may or may not be such a being... At this point, I have no reason to care if that particular god exists or not. There is nothing in Biblical morality that hasn't been said better in other belief systems such as Buddhism. Hypothetical scenario: Alleged Biblical deity descends to Earth with really cool special effects, pyrotechnics and apparent violations of laws of physics. It: "I am the Lord your..." Me: "Hey, I didn't vote for you." It: "Obey me or suffer the consequences." Me: (shrugs) "Give it your best shot... Bully. You couldn't even save your own son. And where the Hel were you when King Olaf was holding my relatives' sons hostage to force them to convert to Christianity? Don't even get me started on Giordano Bruno and that mess in Wurzberg..." Proving the existence of God is a non-issue for me. But, given the shoddy track record of Christianity on this planet, I am passionate about resisting it to the end. </rant> I don't think one could ever sufficiently prove that anyone or anything was indeed a god, rather than "just" a being with advanced technology. I'm not overly concerned about things existing or not existing, or suddenly changing from one state to the other. Even considering that the solid matter around us is >99.9% empty space doesn't throw me for much of a loop. I work with what I have near at hand, and am not overly concerned about the state of the universe in the distant past or distant future. Death is another non-issue for me. In a large (not necessarily infinite) universe, eventually my ideas will recur in another thinking apparatus somewhere. Taking Descartes' "Cogito, ergo sum" to another level, wherever my thoughts occur is where I will happen to be. Or not. Not particularly interested in personal immortality, reincarnation, or other anthropomorphised "second chances" for my consciousness, because I'm not even the same person I was five minutes ago.

03-07-2005, 11:33 AM	#149
thebeave Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 4,183	Catholic Convert, I assume that you love your son, regardless of which religious path he takes in life. That said, I wonder if you have considered the following: Let's say your son, using his "God-given" intellect, has thought deeply and honestly about his God beliefs, and, unlike you, rejects Jesus Christ as his saviour. Though I don't know your specific beliefs, the Bible, as interpreted by many, implies that your son will not join you in eternal heaven, years down the road. And in fact, many Bible literalists will tell you that your son, despite being a good, loving person, will be living an eternity of torture and pain in hell. There are Biblical passages supporting this notion. Once in heaven, will you be comfortable with the notion that your son will soon be in hell for all eternity? Will you feel even just a little guilt for worshipping, for decades, a monster who would do such a thing to a good, kind-hearted person you raised with your own blood, sweat and tears? Sorry to be so blunt, but I really think that you need to think about this.

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