Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aegis · 04-16-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superheavy

How much does it reduce the quality of life for the woman if she is expected to decide in a reasonable time whether she want to keep the baby? Remember, I'm not claiming she should risk damaging her health if such issues arise, only that she should not be allowed -- at least morally -- to abort very late without such reasons.

The circumstances of her life could change. What was right a few months ago may not be right for her anymore.

aegis · 04-16-2007, 11:47 PM

Some research:

I can't link to this article because I accessed it through a database that requires a login, but here's the source and abstract

Title Onset of sentience: The potential for suffering in fetal and newborn farm animals

Author Mellor, David J1; Diesch, Tamara J1

Affiliation (1)Animal Welfare Science and Bioethics Centre, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand

Source Applied Animal Behaviour Science. Vol 100(1-2), Oct 2006, pp. 48-57

Quote:

Abstract
Sentience and consciousness are prerequisites of suffering. Thus, animals must have sufficiently
sophisticated neural mechanisms to receive sensory information and to transduce this information into
sensations, and they must also be conscious to be able to perceive those sensations. Moreover, those
sensations must be sufficiently noxious or aversive to cause suffering. The neural apparatus of embryos and
fetuses of farm animals is inadequate to support sentience for at least the first half of pregnancy, but the
required structures and mechanisms do develop by the time of birth. Thus, although one of the preconditions
for suffering is satisfied shortly before birth, the embryo and fetus are apparently never conscious for the
following reasons. The embryo-fetus initially does not have brain structures that are functionally capable of
supporting consciousness, and subsequently, when the fetal brain might have that capability, it displays
electrical activity indicating a continuous state of sleep and therefore unconsciousness. Furthermore, the
fetus is apparently actively maintained in sleep-like states by several endogenous neuroinhibitory
mechanisms which involve adenosine (a potent neuroinhibitory and sleep inducing agent), allopregnanolone
and pregnanolone (two neurosteroidal anaesthetics), prostaglandin D2 (a potent sleep-inducing hormone), a
placental neural inhibitor, warmth, buoyancy and cushioned tactile stimulation. Consciousness evidently
appears for the first time only after birth. This results from a substantial withdrawal of the neuroinhibitors,
especially adenosine, and the involvement of neuroactivators including 17b-oestradiol (a potent neuroactive
steroid with widespread excitatory effects in the brain), noradrenaline (released from excitatory locus
coeruleus nerves that extend throughout the brain), and a barrage of novel sensory information associated
with the newborn’s first exposure to air, gravity, hard surfaces, unlimited space and, usually, to cold ambient
conditions. We conclude that the embryo and fetus cannot suffer before or during birth. Furthermore, we
conclude that suffering can only occur in the newborn when the onset of breathing oxygenates its tissues

sufficiently to substantially reduce the dominant adenosine inhibition of brain electrical activity.

aegis · 04-16-2007, 11:53 PM

Some more:

link: http://www.anesthesiology.org/pt/re/...856144!8091!-1

Anesthesiology:Volume 95(4)October 2001pp 823-825
Fetuses, Fentanyl, and the Stress Response: Signals from the Beginnings of Pain?

[Editorial Views]
Anand, K. J. S. M.B.B.S., D.Phil., F.A.A.P., F.C.C.M., F.R.C.P.C.H.*; Maze, Mervyn M.B., Ch.B., F.R.C.P., F.R.C.A.��*

Quote:

The clinical and philosophical importance of these findings hinges on the authors' assertion that a functional pain system develops in the human fetus by the third trimester of pregnancy. Even if their nociceptive pathways and reflexes are physiologically active, do humans consciously experience pain from intrauterine needling? Does consciousness occur at birth or does it exist in utero?
Fetal behavior in utero must be differentiated from that of premature infants because of the possibility that the process of birth and the demands of independent survival may trigger the expression of consciousness. Perhaps the widespread and abundant expression of c-fos and other genes immediately after birth 15 reflect the neuronal correlates of consciousness developing at birth. Evidence from the studies of postnatal behavior in preterm infants, which show multiple parallels with the behavior and capabilities of term infants, could be used to support the hypothesis that consciousness develops at the moment of birth. 16 However, the question of fetal consciousness is fraught with intense controversy. The British Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience 17 declared that fetuses may be conscious from 6 weeks of gestation, whereas the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology 18 countered that fetuses cannot be considered sentient before 26 weeks of gestation. Hormonal or circulatory responses do not vouchsafe conscious pain perception, although their absence would be more likely if sensory stimuli from these invasive procedures were not reaching the thalamus and hypothalamus.
Afferent inputs can alter the activity of neurons in the neocortical alange by 20 weeks of gestation, when thalamocortical and cholinergic afferents form synapses with the upper subplate neurons, 19 whereas noradrenergic and dopaminergic fibers start to penetrate the subplate zone by 13 weeks of gestation and reach the cortical plate by 16 weeks. 20 Thalamocortical axons penetrate the primary somatosensory cortex by 24 weeks of gestation, 21 providing the final anatomic link for the developing somatosensory system. Therefore, somatosensory evoked potentials were recorded from the sensory cortex of 25-week preterm neonates. 22 From approximately 20 weeks of gestation, electroencephalo-graphic recordings and ultrasound studies can differentiate sleep states and wakefulness, 23,24 as well as responses to touch 25 and sound. 26 Experimental paradigms investigating the prenatal acquisition of memories in the third trimester of pregnancy further support the concept of fetal consciousness. 27 To us, all these lines of evidence suggest that fetal consciousness develops from about 20-22 weeks of gestation.

Relevant: 17. Rawlinson P: Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience. Christian Action Research and Education, 1996. Available at: http://www.care.org.uk
[Context Link]

Seems to be a Christian source.

Superheavy · 04-17-2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegis

I can't link to this article because I accessed it through a database that requires a login, but here's the source and abstract

Okay, I tend to feel corrected. However, the implication of this is that even the newborn can be promptly terminated. I quite frankly don't like the idea.

EnHiding · 04-17-2007, 02:25 AM

Perhaps I am posting a wrong answer here, but I think this poll should be reworded to say "do you support a woman's right to an abortion at any time during pregnancy?"

I know this will be strange but I am pro-choice. I believe that each individual must decide for themselves what they will do (right or wrong). I personally like the "life begins at conception" but only because I prefer to err on the side of life (I'm also against the death penalty). Yet I would still support a woman's right to do with her body as she wished.

So I while I say "if she wants it" it doesn't reflect my personal feeling on the matter. If that's even relevant to the discussion.

After all, these arguments always end in the question "what constitutes a life" and all the answers have traps in them. Go too far one way and the vegetative state or handicapped can be euthanized, go too far the other way and scratching your nose is murder.

I prefer to err on the scratching your nose side, but I digress.

EH

aegis · 04-18-2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superheavy

Okay, I tend to feel corrected. However, the implication of this is that even the newborn can be promptly terminated. I quite frankly don't like the idea.

Whereas I tend to feel more conflicted, from the second source:

Quote:

Therefore, somatosensory evoked potentials were recorded from the sensory cortex of 25-week preterm neonates. 22 From approximately 20 weeks of gestation, electroencephalo-graphic recordings and ultrasound studies can differentiate sleep states and wakefulness, 23,24 as well as responses to touch 25 and sound. 26 Experimental paradigms investigating the prenatal acquisition of memories in the third trimester of pregnancy further support the concept of fetal consciousness. 27 To us, all these lines of evidence suggest that fetal consciousness develops from about 20-22 weeks of gestation

I personally wouldn't have an abortion from 20-22 weeks unless it was for a health reason.

Superheavy · 04-18-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegis

Whereas I tend to feel more conflicted, from the second source:

Goddammit, how did I miss that! Okay, so it seems I was right from the start. :Cheeky:

As it happens, Finnish law allows abortion
- up to 12 weeks with no questions asked
- up to 20 weeks with some questions asked (I don't know how much of a reason you need, but you have to apply instead of just walking in)
- later only due to medical reasons.

Disclaimer: This, of course, is based on my little knowledge of the law and is possibly all wrong.

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04-17-2007, 02:25 AM	#65
EnHiding Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 75	Perhaps I am posting a wrong answer here, but I think this poll should be reworded to say "do you support a woman's right to an abortion at any time during pregnancy?" I know this will be strange but I am pro-choice. I believe that each individual must decide for themselves what they will do (right or wrong). I personally like the "life begins at conception" but only because I prefer to err on the side of life (I'm also against the death penalty). Yet I would still support a woman's right to do with her body as she wished. So I while I say "if she wants it" it doesn't reflect my personal feeling on the matter. If that's even relevant to the discussion. After all, these arguments always end in the question "what constitutes a life" and all the answers have traps in them. Go too far one way and the vegetative state or handicapped can be euthanized, go too far the other way and scratching your nose is murder. I prefer to err on the scratching your nose side, but I digress. EH

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