Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 11-28-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Here is chapter 34, which I felt you did not address:
And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: “And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people.” Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea.

Here is chapter 33 which you have NOT address.

"First Apology" 33

Quote:

...This, then, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive," signifies that a virgin should conceive without intercourse.

For if she had had intercourse with any one whatever, she was no longer a virgin; but the power of God having come upon the virgin, overshadowed her, and caused her while yet a virgin to conceive.

And the angel of God who was sent to the same virgin at that time brought her good news, saying, "Behold, thou shalt conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shalt bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and thou shalt call His name Jesus.

Justin's Jesus was the Child of a Ghost in chapter 33.

Why are you confused?

Duvduv · 11-28-2011, 02:39 PM

I am sorry, I don't see the element in Justin whereby he believed Jesus born of Mary in Bethlehem to be a ghost rather than (half) human. I guess I am blind to your point or else you haven't explicitly proven it to me.
If chapters 34 and 46 indicate that Jesus was born to Mary in Judea in Bethlehem at the time of Pilate, then I don't see how this means anything other than that Justin considered his Christ to have been a physical person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't mind admitting when I get confused. I am confused by your referral to those chapters of Justin and the fact that I used the same chapters 34 and 46 to suggest that Justin DID believe in an earthly Jesus. Restating repeatedly the idea of the ghost Jesus versus the phantom Jesus doesn't clarify for me what Justin means in chapters 34 and 46 with reference to a man Jesus actually born in the physical world. I guess you'll have to be more explicit with me.....

Well, if you are confused I cannot help you.

You don't SEEM to understand that people of antiquity believed Ghosts actually existed.

You don't SEEM to understand that people of antiquity BELIEVED Phantoms ACTUALLY existed.

Marcion's Son of God was a Phantom and Justin's Jesus was FATHERED by a Holy Ghost.

Duvduv · 11-28-2011, 02:42 PM

So what? If he is born directly from a physical female in the physical world, then his Christ was a physical being. I don't see the quandary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Here is chapter 34, which I felt you did not address:
And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah, foretold. He spoke thus: “And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor, who shall feed My people.” Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judaea.

Here is chapter 33 which you have NOT address.

"First Apology" 33

Quote:

...This, then, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive," signifies that a virgin should conceive without intercourse.

For if she had had intercourse with any one whatever, she was no longer a virgin; but the power of God having come upon the virgin, overshadowed her, and caused her while yet a virgin to conceive.

And the angel of God who was sent to the same virgin at that time brought her good news, saying, "Behold, thou shalt conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shalt bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and thou shalt call His name Jesus.

Justin's Jesus was the Child of a Ghost in chapter 33.

Why are you confused?

aa5874 · 11-28-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I am sorry, I don't see the element in Justin whereby he believed Jesus born of Mary in Bethlehem to be a ghost rather than (half) human. I guess I am blind to your point or else you haven't explicitly proven it to me.
If chapters 34 and 46 indicate that Jesus was born to Mary in Judea in Bethlehem at the time of Pilate, then I don't see how this means anything other than that Justin considered his Christ to have been a physical person...

Well, this settles the matter.

You are confused because you don't understand that there is no such thing as "half-human".

Duvduv · 11-28-2011, 03:13 PM

Of course I can understand that, but I still fail to see the EVIDENCE in the TEXTS of Justin affirming what you are arguing, RATHER than affirming that his Christ was a PHYSICAL being born conventionally from Mary who lived and walked and talked during the early 1st century in Judea and not either a celestial being or even a docetic being (which are not born per certain views of what GMark intended).

Would anyone else like to jump in here and help out?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I am sorry, I don't see the element in Justin whereby he believed Jesus born of Mary in Bethlehem to be a ghost rather than (half) human. I guess I am blind to your point or else you haven't explicitly proven it to me.
If chapters 34 and 46 indicate that Jesus was born to Mary in Judea in Bethlehem at the time of Pilate, then I don't see how this means anything other than that Justin considered his Christ to have been a physical person...

Well, this settles the matter.

You are confused because you don't understand that there is no such thing as "half-human".

aa5874 · 11-28-2011, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Of course I can understand that, but I still fail to see the EVIDENCE in the TEXTS of Justin affirming what you are arguing, RATHER than affirming that his Christ was a PHYSICAL being born conventionally from Mary who lived and walked and talked during the early 1st century in Judea and not either a celestial being or even a docetic being (which are not born per certain views of what GMark intended).

"First Apology" 33

Quote:

...This, then, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive," signifies that a virgin should conceive without intercourse.

For if she had had intercourse with any one whatever, she was no longer a virgin; but the power of God having come upon the virgin, overshadowed her, and caused her while yet a virgin to conceive.

And the angel of God who was sent to the same virgin at that time brought her good news, saying, "Behold, thou shalt conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shalt bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and thou shalt call His name Jesus.

Please explain how a "half human" can be born WITHOUT sexual intercourse?

Sheshbazzar · 11-28-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Would anyone else like to jump in here and help out?!

Nah. Its so much more fun to sit back and watch you guys mud-wrestle. A lot cleaner too.

Duvduv · 11-28-2011, 05:09 PM

Only because the embryo grew conventionally within the mother's womb and was born from the womb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Of course I can understand that, but I still fail to see the EVIDENCE in the TEXTS of Justin affirming what you are arguing, RATHER than affirming that his Christ was a PHYSICAL being born conventionally from Mary who lived and walked and talked during the early 1st century in Judea and not either a celestial being or even a docetic being (which are not born per certain views of what GMark intended).

"First Apology" 33

Quote:

...This, then, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive," signifies that a virgin should conceive without intercourse.

For if she had had intercourse with any one whatever, she was no longer a virgin; but the power of God having come upon the virgin, overshadowed her, and caused her while yet a virgin to conceive.

And the angel of God who was sent to the same virgin at that time brought her good news, saying, "Behold, thou shalt conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shalt bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and thou shalt call His name Jesus.

Please explain how a "half human" can be born WITHOUT sexual intercourse?

Duvduv · 11-28-2011, 05:12 PM

Friends, the bottom line is that we are arguing over whether Justin believed that his Christ was born in Judea in the first century and walked and talked and shed blood and died (and was resurrected) like a physical human being )(promised by Hebrew Scriptures) and not like a ghost or phantom. So far I am not yet convinced that any information of Justin suggests that he believed that his Christ was anything other than a breathing flesh and blood person, as opposed to the author of the epistles who did not relate at all to an actual physical being.
No more mud wrestling for me......I want to get to the bottom of this, and so far I have not succeeded.

aa5874 · 11-28-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Only because the embryo grew conventionally within the mother's womb and was born from the womb....

What!!!! I am totally disappointed. I was of the opinion that I was in discourse with some one who had something to offer about the "Chronologies of the 2nd century".

Now, it is obvious that you have a lot of problems with the biology and anatomy of the human body.

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11-28-2011, 05:12 PM	#119
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Friends, the bottom line is that we are arguing over whether Justin believed that his Christ was born in Judea in the first century and walked and talked and shed blood and died (and was resurrected) like a physical human being )(promised by Hebrew Scriptures) and not like a ghost or phantom. So far I am not yet convinced that any information of Justin suggests that he believed that his Christ was anything other than a breathing flesh and blood person, as opposed to the author of the epistles who did not relate at all to an actual physical being. No more mud wrestling for me......I want to get to the bottom of this, and so far I have not succeeded.

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