guy_683930

This just says God forgives sins, not ONLY God can forgive sins. Plus if you look at Mark again, it says he has authority to forgive sins (Son of Man).

Well, Jesus was a heterodox Jew. As was Paul. As was all of early christianity.

Jesus doesn't say he decided not to know the day of judgement, he says he does not know the day of judgement.

That still doesn't prove ontological equality. So the angels don't 'know' it in the same way. You could then argue the angels are equal, except for all the verses that show they're not. But then again, you have to ignore all the verses that show the son is not equal to the father, too.

Why, so people could avoid being tortured for all eternity?

But he doesn't say that. You are just reading it in.

So that the universe is under 20000 years old and the sun revolves around the earth is in accordance to reason? Because if you were orthodox 600 years ago, it would be a group of necessary beliefs. I don't mean to pick on you because of your name, just it struck me as a little strange.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

Only because there was no real science to discover the antiquity of the earth. The Orthodox Church has no conflict with scientific fact.

Peace.

guy_683930

Only to a heterodox Jew (Paul), and he seems to be thinking of a spiritual messiah, similar to the Essenes. Paul may not have been an essene but he had ideas of a spiritual messiah, not a political messiah. Cyrus was called a messiah in Isaiah. The term had multiple meanings, which can be confused with one another.

So the Garden of Eden story doesn't mean anything at all. You ignore Romans 5:12-21. The parallel structure used would be ruined if there was no Garden of Eden. Also don't forget Exodus 20:11. It has Yahweh saying explicitly that he created the heavens and the earth in six days. And it means LITERAL DAYS. The same word is used in verse 9 to describe how many days per week people should labor.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Not a heterodox Jew but a fulfilled Jew, one who believes in the Jewish Messiah.

It's strange when non-creationists provide commonly refuted creationist claims:

Claim CA622:
Without a literal Fall, there is no need for redemption and thus no need for Jesus or Christianity.
Source:
Grant, Heber J., Anthony W. Ivins, and Charles W. Nibley. n.d. Mormon view of evolution. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/b...lution_eom.htm
Morris, Henry M. 1998. The fall, the curse, and evolution. Back to Genesis 112 (Apr.). http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...on=view&ID=837
Response:
It is sin in general, and not merely one particular instance of sin, that makes redemption necessary. If you can find any sin in the world, then the claim is baseless. Proof of this is given by the fact that many Christians feel the need for redemption but do not believe in a literal Fall.

This claim implies that sin and redemption are about things that happened thousands of years ago, not about anything happening to us today. It makes religion less relevant to people's lives.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA622.html

Claim CH102.2:
Genesis must be literal because writers of later books of the Bible refer to it as fact.
Source:
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 244-247.
Response:
Referring to something as fact does not mean it is fact. Writers often use metaphors. I have often seen writers refer to the story of blind men describing an elephant as if it were fact, for example, even though it is a fictional story.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH102_2.html

Peace.

guy_683930

So you just make up a term when it's useful for you. He's not heterodox because he's fulfilled.

Well, creationists at least acknowledge that there are logical contradictions when scientific theories are discordant with religious beliefs.

No, then it's the fashinoner of people being an asshole by giving people a bunch of desires (like sex - it was necessary for us as a species to desire sex, because if it did not provide pleasure species would not do it, and they would die out - the natural selection of species, in a very simplified form) and then punishing them for wanting to do what they have been doing as a species for over a hundred thousand years.

Romans 5:12:
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--"

It DOES make a difference because it means that Paul was wrong about something. That places his "he was receiving information from the deity who ACTUALLY created the universe, not just receiving information from the deity who metaphorically created the universe like everybody else (except maybe a handful of people)" credibility much lower than before.

But those writers who refer to the story of the blind men and the elephant aren't considered divine and infallible. It would question their infallibility credibility if they were to refer to it as literal if it is not.

Orthodox_Freethinker

No, it's not a term that I made up. 'Fullfilled Jew' is a common term of Christian theology for Jews who have accepted their Messiah given that Christianity is the fullfillment of Judaism.


Peace.

guy_683930

I'm sorry. It's not a term you made up. It's a term made up by another "freethinker" like you.

Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews use these terms, but it's simply a term they made up.

You don't want to discuss it because you have NO evidence that Christianity fulfills Judaism, or that Judaism was the "one true religion" to begin with.

I don't think Christianity is a bad religion, or that Jesus was bad, but it is a serious stretch of the imagination that Christianity was the religion that automatically follows or fulfills Judaism.

Sabbatai Zevi might have been alright as well, but I don't necessarily consider him to have fulfilled Judaism or was the Jewish messiah either.

Toto

This term is deeply offensive to Jews, you realize. And I don't think that it qualifies as a term in Christian theology - it is a specifically evangelical concept.

Orthodox_Freethinker

If Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, then wouldn't a fulfilled Jew be one who believes in Him?

Peace.

Toto

But the Jews do not think that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. In fact, it is not clear that Christians think that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah - don't they think of him as a universal savior? Is that a trick question?