Freethought & Rationalism Archive

archibald · 10-06-2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

This passage was likely post-Pauline manifest of his church.

:constern02:

Archibald, console yourself that we can be reasonably sure that the passage was either pre-Pauline, post-Pauline, or (heaven forbid) Pauline.

Ha ha. Very good.

Mind you, we could even add a 4th option. Have I ever told you my hypothesis about Paul's less famous twin?

It explains EVERYTHING!

archibald · 10-06-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Agreed, that would be tough, if all we had to go on was writing styles. But we might have a fighting chance if several people had disagreed so strongly with the earlier version of your letters that they had written a line by line commnetary on how wrong you were. :devil1:

Jake

We have this?

I don't mean for my letters, obviously.

GakuseiDon · 10-06-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

... He humbled himself by NOT coming as king or warrior or ruler, but as a servant.

Yeah right, like I could have been the King of the World if I had merely decided to be born that way.

igsfly:

Imagine you were born that way -- the heir to a kingdom, for example -- and then you were taken to a large mountain where you were offered all the kingdoms of the world. And then you refuse the offer. That's the sort of scenario that would fit here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hint: only pre-existent beings with plenty of juice (divine entities) would have been believed by the author to get to make these kinds of choices.

Really. So Paul is offering this example for his readers who are pre-existent divine entities?

Ignore the hymn for a moment and look at the surrounding context:

Phil2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who...

Then comes the hymn. Then Paul concludes:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
15 that you may become blameless and harmless, the sons of God without fault...

See the themes: Humility. Obedience. These are the things that make you a son of God.

Would you agree that "sons of God" at the end does not refer to pre-existent divine beings?

aa5874 · 10-06-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Would you agree that "sons of God" at the end does not refer to pre-existent divine beings?

The very Pauline writer has ANSWERED you with a LOUD NO.

Why don't you accept the evidence??

1. The Pauline Jesus was the Lord FROM heaven. 1 Cor.15.47

2. The Pauline Jesus was NOT a man. Galatians 1.1

3. The Pauline Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE he was Sent. Galatians 4.4

4. The Pauline Jesus was in the FORM of God BEFORE he became flesh.Philippians 2

5. The Pauline writer did NOT worship men as Gods. Romans 1.25

6. The Pauline writings are part of the non-heretical writings of the NT Canon.

MCalavera · 10-07-2011, 02:33 AM

GakuseiDon, I'd love to agree with you, but your interpretation in this case is too off. If you can get away with such a bizarre interpretation, then mythicists should then be allowed the same, and I won't agree with that.

I like keeping things as simple as necessary. Your explanation is just too complicated you had to add your own thoughts into the text.

maryhelena · 10-07-2011, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

... He humbled himself by NOT coming as king or warrior or ruler, but as a servant.

Yeah right, like I could have been the King of the World if I had merely decided to be born that way.

igsfly:

Imagine you were born that way -- the heir to a kingdom, for example -- and then you were taken to a large mountain where you were offered all the kingdoms of the world. And then you refuse the offer. That's the sort of scenario that would fit here.

Wow, GDon - so that rules out lowly carpenters from Nazareth (or whereever). So - out with it, what King, or heir to a kingdom, are you thinking about??

No lowly carpenter, no gospel JC - looks like 'Paul' had someone else on his mind.....

Quote:

Page 112/113

...the Jesus of the early epistles is not the Jesus of the gospels. The ministry of the latter may well be modelled on the career of an itinerant Galilean preacher of the early first century, the former derives largely from early Christian interpretations of Jewish Wisdom figures with some influences from redeemer figures of pagan mystery religions.
Mark’s gospel fuses the two Jesus figures into one.

The Jesus Myth. G.Wells (or via: amazon.co.uk)

my bolding

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hint: only pre-existent beings with plenty of juice (divine entities) would have been believed by the author to get to make these kinds of choices.

Really. So Paul is offering this example for his readers who are pre-existent divine entities?

Ignore the hymn for a moment and look at the surrounding context:

Phil2:3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who...

Then comes the hymn. Then Paul concludes:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
15 that you may become blameless and harmless, the sons of God without fault...

See the themes: Humility. Obedience. These are the things that make you a son of God.

Would you agree that "sons of God" at the end does not refer to pre-existent divine beings?

Earthly, human, fleshly, sons of god - and heavenly sons of god (however imagined...). 'Paul' and his dualism - the Jerusalem above and the earthly Jerusalem. Can't have one without the other - you know that old song.....

archibald · 10-07-2011, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

... You are still reading this through Christian apologetic eyes.

...

The passage was written by Christian apologists, not modern rationalists. Why shouldn't it be interpreted with that in mind?

Evidence please.

dog-on · 10-07-2011, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The passage was written by Christian apologists, not modern rationalists. Why shouldn't it be interpreted with that in mind?

Evidence please.

Evidence for what? That it wasn't written by modern rationalists?

archibald · 10-07-2011, 03:31 AM

Guess, Dog-on. Give it your really best shot. Have a cup of coffee first, maybe. :]

dog-on · 10-07-2011, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Guess, Dog-on. Give it your really best shot. Have a cup of coffee first, maybe. :]

:huh:

You realize that Paul was a Christian apologist, right?

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10-07-2011, 02:33 AM	#445
MCalavera Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 314	GakuseiDon, I'd love to agree with you, but your interpretation in this case is too off. If you can get away with such a bizarre interpretation, then mythicists should then be allowed the same, and I won't agree with that. I like keeping things as simple as necessary. Your explanation is just too complicated you had to add your own thoughts into the text.

10-07-2011, 03:31 AM	#449
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	Guess, Dog-on. Give it your really best shot. Have a cup of coffee first, maybe. :]

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