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Old 03-16-2011, 09:48 AM   #581
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Citing opinions is no substitute for evidence.

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New Testament exegesis will never attain a truly scientific character unless Rabbinical literature is thoroughly studied and consulted as to the meaning and purpose of the various sayings and teachings of Jesus and the apostles, and as to the historical perspective from which alone the work of the nascent Christian sect can be understood.--"The Attitude of Christian scholars toward Jewish literature" / Kaufmann Kohler. In Studies, addresses, and personal papers, p. 424.
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:56 AM   #582
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From Kohler (p. 420):
The best utterances of Jesus find their explanation in the Agadah. Take, for instance, the beautiful saying of Jesus: "Behold the birds of heaven! They sow not, neither do they reap, yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not of much more value than they? Behold the lilies of the field; they toil not, neither do they spin ; yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, shall He not much more clothe you, oh men of little faith." As soon as you compare it with an almost identical saying concerning the beasts and the birds in the Mishna, of the men that lack Emunah, 'faith,' and then take into consideration that the name of the purple lily in Palestine was 'the king's lily,' you recognize at once that that saying did not originate with one man, but with the whole class of Hasidim, whose chief teaching was trust in God, who gave the Manna as daily bread even in the wilderness, and not to give a thought to to-morrow's cares and troubles. The Midrash to Parshat ha-Man offers the key to this saying.
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:28 AM   #583
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"Come back when you have some...", (the room hushes in anticipation)... "some evidence." And the reaches of the room echoed, "evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence."

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From Kohler (p. 420):
The best utterances of Jesus find their explanation in the Agadah. Take, for instance, the beautiful saying of Jesus: "Behold the birds of heaven! They sow not, neither do they reap, yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not of much more value than they? Behold the lilies of the field; they toil not, neither do they spin ; yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, shall He not much more clothe you, oh men of little faith." As soon as you compare it with an almost identical saying concerning the beasts and the birds in the Mishna, of the men that lack Emunah, 'faith,' and then take into consideration that the name of the purple lily in Palestine was 'the king's lily,' you recognize at once that that saying did not originate with one man, but with the whole class of Hasidim, whose chief teaching was trust in God, who gave the Manna as daily bread even in the wilderness, and not to give a thought to to-morrow's cares and troubles. The Midrash to Parshat ha-Man offers the key to this saying.
And the smart-assed cricket piped up, "evidence is what you have when all the pundits' mouths are plastered shut."
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:48 AM   #584
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From Kohler (p. 420):
[INDENT]The best utterances of Jesus find their explanation in the Agadah. Take, for instance, the beautiful saying of Jesus: "Behold the birds of heaven! They sow not, neither do they reap, yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not of much more value than they? Behold the lilies of the field; they toil not, neither do they spin ; yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, shall He not much more clothe you, oh men of little faith."....
You seem to live in a DREAM world.

The Gospels are most likely NOT eyewitness accounts. They are historically UNRELIABLE.

And, the EARLIEST canonized version of gMatthew is from the 4th century.

You ONLY know what is FOUND written, you DON'T know who actually said or wrote anything in the NT.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:05 AM   #585
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The Gospels are literature, Jewish literature.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:17 AM   #586
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The Gospels are literature, Jewish literature.
Well, can you give the names of the Jews who wrote them?
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:22 AM   #587
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Well, can you give the names of the Jews who wrote them?
No. Nor can I name the Anglo-Saxon poet who wrote "Beowulf." I do know, though, that "Beowulf" is Anglo-Saxon literature, and the Gospels are Jewish literature.
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:51 AM   #588
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The Gospels are literature, Jewish literature.
A belief statement. It's your voice and that's a start. Now how do you get past that and say something that will be inspire consideration?
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:28 PM   #589
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The point is that earliest Christianity is wholly Jewish, and, ergo, the earliest Christians were wholly Jewish.
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Paul's works are the earliest literature of christianity.
Maybe, but what about the epistle to the Hebrews, or the Revelation? Apart from tradition, how do we know that Paul's letters existed when these were written? Why couldn't Hebrews have been written by a gentile?
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Old 03-16-2011, 12:51 PM   #590
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Paul's works are the earliest literature of christianity.
Just to be clear, this is a quotation from spin, which I modified in my post to read:

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Paul's works are the earliest written literature of christianity.
I would go on to specify that Paul's works are the earliest written literature of Christianity that we have available.

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Maybe, but what about the epistle to the Hebrews, or the Revelation? Apart from tradition, how do we know that Paul's letters existed when these were written?
Perhaps these are older than Paul's letters. I don't know. But they are Jewish. See "Apocalypse" in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

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Why couldn't Hebrews have been written by a gentile?
Here is Brunner:
Greek influence—and this means, first and foremost, the influence of Jewish Alexandrianism—is clearly discernible in the Epistle to the Hebrews, which used to be ascribed to Paul. His authorship, however, should quite certainly be rejected. It was probably written towards the end of the first century; even its language sets it apart from the rest of the New Testament, since it is composed in an educated Greek which reveals the influence of the language of Philo.
Emphasis added.
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