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Old 09-30-2011, 09:10 AM   #91
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And the time and effort spent by everybody else on the mythical Jesus will continue to bemuse those few who maintain the historicity of Christ.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:48 AM   #92
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And the time and effort spent by everybody else on the mythical Jesus will continue to bemuse those few who maintain the historicity of Christ.
I think if we polled it we'd find more people are bemused by your odd Jesus/Jew/Genius infatuation than anything else.
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Old 10-01-2011, 07:03 AM   #93
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I think if we polled it we'd find more people are bemused by your odd Jesus/Jew/Genius infatuation than anything else.
The mob has spoken!
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Old 10-01-2011, 03:52 PM   #94
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Is there any real life issue that would change if Jesus existed, or if he didn't?

Does the historical Jesus even have anything to do with Christian origins, or how to live a good life?

Why do Christians keep the issue open? Why do atheists care?
1. the structure and nature of western society; but maybe not that much. Living in a more secular country the bishops in the House of Lords [and the house perhaps] would probably go. The old chestnut that only god gives us a moral compass may slowly fade. If there was absolute proof of no historical jesus, i.e. 'ancient book found saying we made it all up' then the popes authority would take a hit and contraception may hit a high.

2. An historical Jesus doesn't even sound like a nice person, all that talk of hell, damning pigs and fig trees. But no historical Jesus means no papal authority. Christianity needs Christ or apocalypse. Without the man there is only savour gods and there are plenty of them.

3. see above, but faith requires un-critical thinking and personally I feel the world would be a better place if critical thought took a more prominant role in all our lives.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:25 PM   #95
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I don't think it's such a great mystery how Christianity could have started without a historical Jesus. Worship of mythical figures is quite common historically.
You aren't really talking about modern Christianity, nor the Christianity that really took over and lasted for 1900 years at least. That's the popular Christianity. That's the one that 'started' and lasted. Your appeal to these variants of Christianity that touch on new-agey gnosticism is an appeal to fringe Christianity that didn't thrive, and therefore I doubt it would thrive if Jesus were proven non-historical. Christianity, as we know it, would die out. You may have a few hundred thousand or even a million 'new age Christians' remain, and they may get a few converts, but 90% of Christians would die out within a generation or two. History seems to be on my side here.
I have little desire to pursue this point very far but I still think I'm right. There's no way to be absolutely certain about it without giving it a go and we both know that's never going to happen. IMO there would still be a massive market for assuaging peoples' feelings of guilt by offering them absolution for things that bother them. The billions of people already comfortable with "Biblegod" would be more comfortable accepting a modified version of that as opposed to a completely different religion altogether. Historically speaking Christianity absorbed evolutionary science, a Helio-centric solar system and a 14 billion year old universe and got fatter in the process.

Fringe is as fringe does. Fundamentalist creationism was once the norm and people who thought the Garden of Eden was metaphoric were the fringe.
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Old 10-02-2011, 01:19 PM   #96
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Christian theology requires the elimination of the historical Jesus:
The aporia of Christianity is its claim that Jesus founded a new religion, despite his being immersed throughout his life in the practices and beliefs of Judaism. It is his historical reality as a Jew that must be eradicated by Christian theology if its claim to be a new religion is to have any meaning.--"Theology as a vision of colonialism: From supercessionism to dejudaization in German Protestantism" / Susannah Heschel. In Germany's colonial pasts / Eric Ames, Marcia Klotz, Lora Wildenthal, eds; p. 159.
Christian religion must embrace mythicism or perish.
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Christian religion must embrace mythicism or perish.
Well, get the casket ready because it will never embrace it so it will have to perish.
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Old 10-02-2011, 01:39 PM   #97
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I think if we polled it we'd find more people are bemused by your odd Jesus/Jew/Genius infatuation than anything else.
The mob has spoken!
A one man mob? Makes me feel very powerful.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:20 PM   #98
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Christian theology requires the elimination of the historical Jesus:
The aporia of Christianity is its claim that Jesus founded a new religion, despite his being immersed throughout his life in the practices and beliefs of Judaism. It is his historical reality as a Jew that must be eradicated by Christian theology if its claim to be a new religion is to have any meaning.--"Theology as a vision of colonialism: From supercessionism to dejudaization in German Protestantism" / Susannah Heschel. In Germany's colonial pasts / Eric Ames, Marcia Klotz, Lora Wildenthal, eds; p. 159.
Christian religion must embrace mythicism or perish.
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Christian religion must embrace mythicism or perish.
Well, get the casket ready because it will never embrace it so it will have to perish.

When's the wake?
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:24 PM   #99
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Mythicists may want to ask themselves if they really want to be involved with a line of inquiry that more than once has been linked with genocide:
But the question of demonstrating a link between historical Jesus portrayals and the subsequent Holocaust would require a monumental investigation of its own and is so amorphous that the probability of success would be minimal. My own suspicion, merely to venture an intuition, is that the treatment of Jesus in scholarship, and thereby in churches as well, had an indirect influence in preparing people to think of Jesus as disconnected from Judaism and therefore to separate the two in making moral evaluations. The same could, of course, be affirmed of places other than Germany. The instinct of Jewish scholarship to attempt to reclaim Jesus was then not merely an exercise in recovering its own history, but a movement of self-survival as well.--The historical Jesus in the twentieth century, 1900-1950 / Walter P. Weaver, p. 256.
The failure of mythicists to acknowledge the essentially Jewish nature of Christ means that they are continuing the general line of hatred of Jews.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:23 PM   #100
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Mythicists may want to ask themselves if they really want to be involved with a line of inquiry that more than once has been linked with genocide:
But the question of demonstrating a link between historical Jesus portrayals and the subsequent Holocaust would require a monumental investigation of its own and is so amorphous that the probability of success would be minimal. My own suspicion, merely to venture an intuition, is that the treatment of Jesus in scholarship, and thereby in churches as well, had an indirect influence in preparing people to think of Jesus as disconnected from Judaism and therefore to separate the two in making moral evaluations. The same could, of course, be affirmed of places other than Germany. The instinct of Jewish scholarship to attempt to reclaim Jesus was then not merely an exercise in recovering its own history, but a movement of self-survival as well.--The historical Jesus in the twentieth century, 1900-1950 / Walter P. Weaver, p. 256.
The failure of mythicists to acknowledge the essentially Jewish nature of Christ means that they are continuing the general line of hatred of Jews.
Godwin's Law strikes again.

You know who believed in a historical Jesus? Hitler. You know who is associated with the Holocaust? German Catholics and Lutherans, Croatian Catholics, etc. all of whom believed in a historical Jesus.

How about we just say that Jesus was a Jewish myth?
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