Steven Carr

Haran had written to me in this thread 'This is the problem. So many are going off their own interpretations of faulty and hole-ridden information, not to mention trusting in the expertise of scholars they don't even know about.'

And he followed this up with nothing more than 'Keep reading, Steven. Sorry, that's all I have to say to you. I'm tired of dealing with your rhetoric.'

Now we learn that this latest outburst is because he could not be bothered to read accurately what I had posted . And he accuses me of trying to 'trap' him by posting something he did not comprehend.

Can't the moderators DO something about Haran's stream of insults to people on this forum? It is getting beyond a joke.....

To get back to serious discussion, Haran still refuses to address the point that Golan was perfectly well aware of this entry in Rahmani's catalogue , before Fitzmyer. Is this not a smoking gun, or does Haran really regard it as a 'nitpick' and a 'triviality'?

Haran

Perhaps you should re-read the last part of my previous post that you apparently "could not be bothered to read accurately".

By the way, I was trying to simply ignore you, except that you kept posting taunts.

Further, you were wrong on the first count if not the second, so you still partially deserved the first comment I made.

Bah!

Steven Carr

Lemaire writes in http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbbreakingHSALFMC.html

'......while Oded Golan showed me the James ossuary inscription just as an inscription among the objects from his collection, before showing another ossuary inscription of two lines which he could not read because it was cursive.'

How did Golan read the James ossuary, which is, if I understand correctly, also partly cursive? Or am I missing something obvious?

Doctor X

Instructs Seed to hose down the combatants in the foyer. . . .

Hey . . . Haran and Steve . . . would this be worth a formal debate? Not to put words in either of ye fingertips, but perhaps a RESOLVED: The Ossary is a PROVEN Fake with Steve as the Pro and Haran as the Con?

Or reverse it: RESOLVED: The Ossary is NOT a Proven Fake.

--J.D.

Haran

Makin' fun of us?

Stop that, Ed!

Doctor X

I will even reply with a

I just think a Formal Debate would prove a nice resource since, no matter what happens, the Ossary will come up again . . . and again . . . and again.

--J.D.

Toto

This whole thread is why I thank the IPU that I no longer have to moderate here.

Haran wants to discuss something that never even occurred. He wants to know why people believed Rochelle Altman when she has all the egregious faults that he has laid out in such detail so we can all see how wronged he feels. But I don't recall anyone basing an opinion on Rochelle Altman's work or citing her as the ultimate authority. It was the final IAA report that labeled the ossuary inscription a fraud which settled the issue for most of us.

If you recall the early stages of the ossuary discussion, it was the theist side (most notably Layman) who were crowing over this new discovery and its meaning for historical Jesus studies, uncritically accepting the story. The rest of us were expressing skepticism and advocating waiting for more expert analysis.

Altman has made a number of statements that I don't fell qualified to judge - such as the idea of sound bite grouping. She has also pointed out some things that can be seen from a good photograph of the inscription. She may in fact have jumped the gun and been a little pushy. But I don't recall anyone saying: noted expert Rochelle Altman says this is a forgery, therefore it is and no more evidence is needed.

Vorkosigan

You'e still hung up on the "scholarship" issue, Haran. The ossuary isn't about scholarship. It's about forgery. And if there is anything that goes right by scholarship, it's forgery.

I realize lots of people thought it was too early when several of us, including me, openly declared it a forgery. You complain it was too early for most scholars. I understand that. Most scholars have very little experience with forgery. That's fine. But for those of us with the background and experience -- that the scholars did not have -- it stank of forgery. From the start. Initial posts by myself and Toto and Kelly Wellington and others pointed out everything that was suspicious, and each and every one of those observations has been borne out. Further, since I don't believe James was the brother of Jesus, there was nothing it could be but a forgery. Each and every mythicist came to the same conclusion, based on the correct assessment of early Christian history. The incorrect assessment of early Christian history that passes for mainstream history meanwhile looked eagerly at this object hoping for validation.

That is a point worth emphasizing -- because NT history is erroneous, NT scholars will be continued marks for frauds of this nature. This wasn't the first one, and I doubt it will be the last one. In fact, I expect that the next one will take much longer to unravel.

Thus only question in my mind, early, was whether it was an early one or a modern one. Its identity as a modern forgery was settled when it passed through the first Israeli geological survey examintion without any critical tests being done. That was a classic step in the forgery arc that proved to my satisfaction it was a modern forgery.

So while the scholars were applying the wrong expertise, those of us with the right expertise applied it and got the correct answer. The irony -- which I admit later turned delicious -- was listening to yammerheads who did not know what they were talking about, telling us we didn't know what we were talking about.

LOL. You know there is good reason to suspect Lemaire. The comment in his book that Golan informed him of the relationship between the two brother inscriptions is as good as a signed confession, Haran.

Also, the ossuary condemnation was public because the Israelis all have known and suspected Golan as a forger for sometime prior to this. The community of collectors is small and they all know each other. Everyone in Israel knows who and what Golan is.

LOL.

It's fake without a doubt, Haran. Are you still going to hold this position after Golan confesses, or are you going to maintain that Israeli police bias beat it out of him or something? Each new revelation simply pushes you guys higher up the ladder of denial.

Not if they are right. And a field where 99% of the scholars are oath-sworn to believe that James was Jesus' brother is in no position to talk about bias.

BTW, care to make a side bet on the authenticity of the Temple Ostracon? Altman has declared that one a forgery (see the footnotes to her article on the Yehoash Tablet). How about the Temple Pomegranate? That one stinks of being an Oded Special too. Kiss'em all goodbye, Haran, they are all going bye-bye.

Vorkosigan

Haran

And part of the problem was not recognizing what the original topic was. It was not discussing something that never occurred. It was supposed to be about the errors of scholars who were believed and touted by many here. Oops... Others came in and immediately started trying to foist a position on me which I do not hold, changing the course of the thread. If someone had stepped in to help it stay on topic, that might have been good, but it's what I've come to expect.

Not only her faults. That's why I said scholars. If one actually read the article linked in the OP, one would get the detailed arguments one is apparently still looking for.

I provided a couple of small details on some theories. If anyone understood them, there weren't more questions for more detail. It looks like some simply refuse to see the details and true topic. This is what makes moderation so hard for some.

Bull-oney. She was the only one to reject the thing in the beginning and nearly everyone jumped on it. This is just spin recovery.

My question would be, why in the world do you trust their varied analyses? After all, most here seemed to completely reject the first physical analysis. Only when the decision went in the direction of inauthenticity did most eveyone seem to jump on the bandwagon. Yeah, see, it's a fraud like we thought all along! The only group of the IAA committe who really influenced the others was the physical science group, and that is being overturned (still reading BAR?). The others all seemed to disagree amongst themselves.

Mostly everyone here, gee, I wonder why.

See, the details I gave were caught, just ignored. When questioned by me on this detail, she refused to clarify or give sources and that was when I was trying to being nice to her.

After her report and some statements by other questionable scholars is when some other websites and post titles went up saying "The James Ossuary is a FAKE!" Please, some have a very selective memory.

Haran

Yes. I'm tired of bunk and biased scholarship that deludes the masses.

Yes. I remember you saying that a certain scholar was an expert in forgeries. Funny, that person should also claim to be an expert in semitic paleography. Hmm, wait, that person claimed to be an expert in logic, too (eh...hem...). Oh yeah, I believe this is the same person whose degree has nothing to do with any of these things. So, anyone who's taken some "classes" in these subjects is an expert. With that criteria, I don't know why I can't be considered an "expert" in some areas outside my degree. It never ceases to amaze me who actually has faith and just doesn't know it.

I think there might have been a couple of other things as well if I cared to go back and look. Whatever. Some scholars very much seemed to want the ossuary to be a fraud from the start and that is why I believe they came out so early and so unreasonably confident. And it wasn't just one scholar, though many others were slightly more reserved.

I'll believe that you have some experience in forgery before certain other people. However, I've been ripped off before too. Most people have at some point in life. Detecting a forgery requires knowing intimate details about the objects that are being forged. Who has that intimate knowledge of the James ossuary? Very doubtfully those who initially decried it in very stong language.

Most of those thing had already been pointed out by others and news reports. The news reports often got things wrong. Yet more faith... There are many stories I still don't trust.

I didn't think you believed there was a Jesus? Of course you think the ossuary would have to be a fraud. How are these biases really any different than those of the Christians who think Jesus did exist, James was his brother, and the ossuary might have been authentic? To answer, it's not.

See. This is why I wonder about paranoia or agenda in other certain scholars. Perhaps they want, like you, based on their own perceptions of history, to destroy and/or downplay many other archaeological discoveries. Bad, bad trend. While we're at it, why don't we destroy every other artifact we have because nothing really helps us determine true history anyway...they just get in the way....

I do not see this as a confession of any sort. He believed Ada Yardeni to have helped Golan with the inscription. Do you also think Ada Yardeni is in on this? Probably so... Where does it stop? Golan, Shanks, Lemaire, Yardeni... Come on, I'm sure there are more...

If Golan did it, I very much doubt Lemaire is in on it. If anything, and if it is truly a fraud, then he has simply been taken and backed into a defending position.

They suspect every single antiquities collector. Don't you remember the story of the other antiquities collector they suspected and I think raided? I mentioned his story quite a while back. They do not like antiquities collectors, not that I blame them, but it is a ridiculous tactic to attempt to label them all frauds and forgers!

At the moment, I cannot say without a doubt, and think it dishonest to do so. If Golan confesses to something, then his guilt will be obvious and I will be able to say without a doubt. But how many times would you say that he has now been arrested and released?? Do they have anything against him or not??

As you know, however, that was not the point of the thread.

You better believe I'm beginning to suspect the "other side" of some nasty tricks. I'll believe it when I see it, Vork. If that's truly the case, then lock Golan up and throw away the key. Oh yeah, and a cetain someone is probably only harping on what they've heard from others. I have a problem believing there is anything original in what a certain someone said, sorry. Everytime you give mention them, I LOL. Again, if right, it was by mere luck or because of the fact of close proximity to others who really know what's going on.