Elijah

I haven't heard anyone talk of demons in a while where I didn't think they were referring to memes. I don't know how many people out there still really believe in supernatural creatures pulling the strings in the minds of man. But as regards to recognizing a supernatural ideology towards god and heaven. If God is an involved character and you go to heaven and your family are there now chances are they have a supernatural understanding, but you can never be sure until you talk to them.

GakuseiDon

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean by "supernatural view", with regards to early Christian thinking. You don't appear to have any examples from that time, either from the pagan side or Christian, and what you appear to be referring to are modern ideas retrograded back into ancient thinking.

The fact is, Paul and the latter Church Fathers believed that demons and magic existed. I'm not sure if that constitutes a "supernatural view" to you since you can't provide any examples from the time to illustrate your meaning. But that is certainly what we mean today. The main difference between the thinking back then and today is that today, it's thought that demons live in a separate "spiritual" dimension, whereas back then they believed demons shared the material world with us. The latter is entirely consistent with platonism AFAICS.

Here is an article on Middle Platonism. I've pulled out statement relating to daemons:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/m/midplato.htm

Again following Xenocrates, Antiochus expressed a belief in daemons, who inhabit the sub-lunar realm (the supra-lunar realm being reserved for the divine celestial bodies). He also appears to have believed in divination, not only through the motion of the celestial bodies, but by way of dreams, oracles, beasts, and even inanimate objects (Cicero, De divinatione I.12 ff.; Dillon, p. 89).

Antiochus' teaching regarding divination and daemons is a precedent of the Neoplatonic system of Iamblichus

Posidonius understood human beings as forming a bridge between these two realms, and theorized that souls originate in the sun and travel to earth by way of the moon (Zeller, pp. 269-270). Some of these souls become humans while others become daemons or heroes, a doctrine developed in his treatise On Heroes and Demons, which had an immense influence on later Platonists, especially Plutarch.

Like Xenocrates and other Platonists, Ocellus understood the cosmos as divided in two parts, the supra-lunar and the sub-lunar, the gods existing in the former and daemons and humans in the latter. It is only in the sub-lunar regions, he argued, that generation and decay occurs, for it is in this region that "nonessential" beings undergo alteration according to nature.

Is this not "case closed"?

Elijah

No, daemon to a Platonist represents the whole dominion between god and man. It's the whole spiritual side... still constant.

Cite some texts you want me to look at.

Edit

As far as the supernatural view, it's the assumed view of the skeptic so ask them for evidence not me.

GakuseiDon

What does that mean?

Would it be accurate to say that it relates to demons and magic?

Elijah

A Platonist understands daemon different then later Jews or early Christians.

I would say it has more to do with an understanding of God and the universe more then demons and magic.

GakuseiDon

So, are you agreeing then that pagan Platonism is not inconsistent with daemons and magic?

Elijah

What is pagan Platonism? Platonism has daemons in their ideology but they aren't supernatural entities, they represent certain constant aspects of the universe. I don't know what type of magic you're talking about or who's text you are referencing.

GakuseiDon

Platonism developed by non-Christians and non-Jews.

Any, I suppose, that refer to daemons. Here is Apuleius:
http://www.prometheus.cwc.net/pt-vol14.htm

Moreover, there are certain divine middle powers, situated in this interval of the air, between the highest ether and earth, which is in the lowest place, through whom our desires and our deserts pass to the Gods. These are called by a Greek name daemons, who, being placed between the terrestrial and celestial inhabitants, transmit prayers from the one, and gifts from the other. They likewise carry supplications from the one, and auxiliaries from the other, as certain interpreters and saluters of both. Through these same daemons, as Plato says in the Banquet, all denunciations, the various miracles of enchanters, and all the species of presages, are directed. Prefects, from among the number of these, providentially attend to every thing, according to the province assigned to each; either by the formation of dreams, or causing the fissures in entrails, or governing the flights of some birds, and instructing the songs of others, or by inspiring prophets, or hurling thunder, or producing the coruscations of lightning in the clouds; or causing other things to take place, by which we obtain a knowledge of future events...

[daemons] consist of that most pure, liquid, and serene element of air, and on this account are not easily visible to the human eye, unless they exhibit an image of themselves by divine command.

Plato apparently believed that daemons could perform "the various miracles of enchanters". Are these not actual supernatural entities?

Elijah

Isn’t that just regular Platonism?
What makes them supernatural? Why isn’t he just trying to describe the natural phenomenon? What kind of daemon do you imagine he is speaking about?

Like I said they divided the unseen every way you could imagine. It was hard to get from a single god to all the particulars in the material world and he is just adding another layer of division. Like logos represents the divider as a single entity for Philo. It also looks like he is mixing memes and forces together into just unseen effectors of nature and man.

All powers and ability (the whole world) comes from these unseen forces so I’m not sure about the giving powers or miracles point proving supernaturalism.

GakuseiDon

OK. Thanks, Elijah.