outhouse

I follow as stated Johnathon Green for anthropology


ya ya I understand the tongue lol

Sheshbazzar

Sure you do.
And how well you understood the anthropological implications of the rest.

Duvduv

There is a concept in Judaism whereby a righteous man's death can serve as an atonement for HIS OWN generation and atoning for their sins. However, a vicarious atonement for all generations is unheard of in Judaism. But I suppose it's theoretically possible that these people misunderstood this Jewish notion in applying the atonement by the crucifixion.

outhouse

well I dont follow all of his buddies hypotheses.


I have a very open mind and leave plenty of room for error

aa5874

Let us TEST your implications.

You put forward the notion that the Pauline Epistles should have more gospel material if they were written AFTER THE GOSPELS.

Now Examine ALL the so called Epistles that are considered as non-Pauline.

1. The First Epistle to Timothy does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus.

2. The Second Epistle to Timothy does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

3. The Epistle to Titus does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

4. The Epistle to Philemon does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

5. Hebrews does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

6. The First Epistle of Peter does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

7. The Second Epistle of Peter does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

8. The Epistle of James does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

9. The First Epistle of John does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

10 The Second Epistle of John does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

11. The Third Epistle of John does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus

12. The Epistle of Jude does NOT contain a quote from the Gospel Jesus


In the NT Canon all the Epistles including Hebrews do NOT have much gospel material even though claimed to have been written by Apostles and relatives of Jesus and AFTER the Pauline writings and AFTER the Gospels.

Again, you have IMPLODED.

ALL the General Epistles and Hebrews are PRESUMED to be AFTER the Pauline writings YET they show that they do NOT have much Gospeland Pauline material.

Bernard Muller

to aa,
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
Allusion to gospels, more so gLuke & gMatthew:
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions,

This short epistle is considered among the seven letters written by Paul by most critical scholars and I.

According to my analysis and many critical scholars, written before the gospels

Yes it does:
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"
2Pe 1:18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
It also mentions Paul as a writer.

I think that letter was written before the gospels and contains stuff against Paul & other apostles who were boasting and extrapolating:
Jam 3:5 So the tongue is a little member and boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire!
Jam 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.
Jam 3:7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by humankind,
Jam 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue--a restless evil, full of deadly poison

That's a tiny epistle!

Another tiny epistle

If we look only to the epistles not written by Paul AND after the gospels AND not ultra short, we have 2 out of 7 or 8 (you forgot 2Th) which contain gospel material.
That's better than 1 out of 7 for the deemed genuine Pauline letters according to you.
Also, because you place the epistles very late, the forger would also have to ignore Justin Martyr quoting the memoirs of the apostles, gospels and gospel.
And also 1Clement, widely considered the earliest non canonical epistle (written 96 for many, 81 according to my analysis) does some cut and paste on gMark material and, in other places, used more bits from gMark. He also knew about 'Hebrews' and Paul having written 1Corinthians.
See my discussion on 1Clement here:
http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#1Clement
Other canonical and non canonical texts written before 2nd century and containing gospels material:
Revelation, epistle of Barnabas and the Didache. See explanations on this webpage: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html

aa5874

I did NOT mention ALLUSIONS. I stated about 12 times that the Epistles which are not considered Pauline and AFTER the Gospels and AFTER the Pauline writings do NOT have a quote from the Gospel Jesus.

None of them QUOTED the supposed words of Jesus FOUND in the Gospels.

The non-Pauline Epistles have triggered another implosion by CLEARLY showing that they have very little Gospel material although supposedly LATE.

But, NOW I will show you that the supposed Pauline writer did KNOW of gLuke and QUOTED Gospel Jesus--NOT ALLUSIONS--NOT ILLUSIONS.

Luke 22:19 KJV1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV Only gLuke's Jesus said THIS DO IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME

Only the Pauline writer QUOTED the Gospel Jesus WORD-for-WORD.

1. Paul claimed there was Scriptures that state Jesus DIED for OUR SINS and was resurrected on the THIRD day.

2. Apologetic sources, Origen and Eusebius, claimed PAUL was AWARE of gLuke.

3. There is a WORD-for-WORD QUOTE of gLuke's Jesus in the Pauline writings.

The Pauline writings ARE AFTER the Jesus story was known and circulated in the Roman Empire that Jesus was BETRAYED after he had supped, was cruicified, DIED for OUR SINS and was Resurrected on the THIRD day.

The Pauline writer is a FRAUD.

The writer LIVED in another century under a different name and gave the FALSE IMPRESSION that he wrote letters to churches in the Roman Empire and Met Apostles in the Jesus stories Before the Fall of the Temple.

Well, there is NO evidence whatsoever from any credible sources that the so-called Apostles Peter/Cephas, James and John did exist.

There were NO Pauline letters, No PAULINE Churches and NO Apostles of a Non-human Jesus.

Paul did claim his Jesus was NON-HUMAN. Galatians 1.1

Your argument has been turned into rubble.

Of all the Epistles the Pauline writings have the MOST Gospel material which indicates that they were written AFTER the Jesus story was known.

Duvduv

It is not word-for-word at all. 1 Corinthians 11:
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Luke 22: 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]

Bernard Muller

to aa,
The mention of Pontius Pilate in 1Timothy and the alleged words of God on the mountain in 2Peter (corresponding to gMatthew version) are not allusions. What I considered allusion is from again 1Timothy 1:4 "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions,"
And let's not forget about 4 other Christian texts written before the 2nd century (according to most scholars and I, after analysis), Revelation, the Didache, epistle of Barnabas and 1Clement, all of those with gospel material. If you add them up, that would give a high ratio of texts with gospel material. There is even more, considering some epistles such as Titus, 2Peter, 2John & 3John might have been written as late as 130. At about that time, Papias, Aristides, Quadratus, Marcion, Basilides and Valentinus showed gospel material or knowledge in their writings.
Then around 140-160, the epistle of apostles, Ignatian letters, Ptolemy and Justin Martyr also showed knowledge of gospels.
More info here: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html

Lk22:19b-20 is likely a later insertion because:
a) it is lacking in Codex Bezae & some early Latin translations. And in other early manuscripts, sequence of the three clauses is changed in 22:17-20 (wine, bread, wine), sometimes differently.
b) it duplicates the cup offering.
c) it suggests 'Jesus died for your sins', but this concept never appears again in GLuke/'Acts'.
d) it copies from 1Co11:24-25, with words like "new covenant", "for you", "do this in remembrance of me", not appearing in GMark & GMatthew's versions of the Last Supper.

aa5874

Please, please, please!!!!

I highlighted the phrase that is a WORD-FOR-WORD copy of gLuke's Jesus.

"THIS DO IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME".

It is most remarkable that you refuse to accept ACTUAL evidence of antiquity.

These are NOT ALLUSIONS like those presented by Bernard Muller. The Pauline writer QUOTED words of gLuke's Jesus.

Luke 22:19 KJV1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV Only gLuke's Jesus supposedly said this do in remembrance of me at the Last Supper.