DBT

Even if free will was a given, the range of human behavior is finite and to an Omniscient Being that range of finite behavior would not only be utterly predictable in any given situation, but fully known. So to such a Being, the difference in companionship between someone that has 'free will' and robot is exactly zero.

Newfie

From what the nuns use to tell us in school being in heaven meant being in God’s presence, which was so powerful as to completely overwhelm a person’s senses to the point where thinking of anything else was purely impossible.

I always imagined this to be like being on the ultimate drug high which, if it lasted for an eternity, I wouldn’t be in any condition to be bothered by, but in my present, living condition seems like an utter waste of consciousness. If anyone other than God did something to you to put you in this state for the rest of your life, on purpose, like brain damage or something, you would consider them your worse enemy, wouldn’t you?

ziffel

I've not seen it phrased that way. Great point.

Porky Pine

So, no Christians want to chime in on what Heaven actually is?

lunachick

It's my understanding that heaven is an ego trip. The faithful go there to stroke God's ego and schmooze with the saints or whatever. And in turn, they get their own ego's stroked as God tells them how fabulous and worthy they are, and how much better they are than that limp-wristed-so-and-so-with-the-girly-car. Ego, ego, ego. There's nothing more to it.

dimbulb

" Originally Posted by DBT View Post
Even if free will was a given, the range of human behavior is finite and to an Omniscient Being that range of finite behavior would not only be utterly predictable in any given situation, but fully known. So to such a Being, the difference in companionship between someone that has 'free will' and robot is exactly zero."

I guess that would hold true for this life too, not just in Heaven. To God we're an ant farm.
"Watch them skitter about, I'm so glad I made this Universe, it's damned entertaining"

dimbulb

More insight into Heaven's mysteries can be found here:
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/200...omplexity.html

dimbulb

And what is Heaven for.... other than forever.

Riley Stone

Ego does seem to play a large part in the heaven fantasies of God's sheep.

I think part of this has to do with the need to feel vindicated. Some (perhaps many or even most) Christians feel that in this life, they've gotten a bad lot. (And often times, it seems that they have.) These Christians may feel that they're unattractive or unsuccessful or unappreciated according to "worldly" standards. However, they've found a way to get beyond all of that. They've found a way to feel "successful" as "spiritually wise" people. They fancy themselves as experts on what the Bible really says and what it really means. They see themselves as wise leaders, who are capable of advising others. Unfortunately, not everyone recognizes the Christian's level of spiritual maturity and wisdom, and for that reason, the Christian understands that those people need to be punished and punished severely!

In heaven, the Christian can dream about how one day all of the rejection he has experienced in this life is going to be instantly transformed into love, acceptance, and appreciation from others. In this life, the Christian may live in a cockroach infested trailer park, but in heaven--he's going to live in a grand mansion in the sky. In this life, he may work at a job he hates, but in heaven, he'll be buddies--colleagues even--with God himself.

Yes, in heaven, all the people who failed to recognize just how great, smart, pure, and wise the Christian was in this life will get what they have coming to them: Endless, Conscious, Unspeakable Suffering!!!!

If it weren't for the Christian's desperate need to believe that one day he will at last belong to a part of an elite population in heaven, then why would he actually be able to find hope in the thought of spending eternity in heaven, where behind the curtain the object of his worship is eternally tormenting people in hell. Sure, Christians will often say that the thought of people suffering forever in hell makes them sad. However, if that thought really made them sad, then I think they might seriously question the goodness of a God who planned to subject people to just that sort of existence. If the thought of people suffering forever in hell really made them sad, then I don't think they'd be able to continue on finding hope in the thought of a "happy existence" that included living in a state of ignorant and/or ambivalent oblivion to what God was doing to people they knew and loved in this life.

I've asked Christians many times how they would feel if they found out that God was going to let everyone in to heaven. I will say that I have encountered some loving, good-hearted Christians who said that they would be thrilled to death if that were the case. Most Christians, however, are offended by the very suggestion, saying that if God let everyone into heaven, he'd be breaking his promise to them. Promise of what? Well, apparently the promise of vindication, the promise that one day, they'll belong to some sort of exclusive club. The promise that one day, all those people who made them feel inferior in this life will get exactly what they have coming to them. In reality, it isn't God who thinks that people who reject him or don't believe in him deserve to be eternally tormented. It's the Christian who believes this.

The dream of revenge and personal vindication. I think that in many cases, that's what "heaven" is for.

dimbulb

"the dream of revenge and personal vindication"

You may be on to something. It does seem that no matter how mainstream a Christian is, they like to think of themselves as being "one of the few". He can be a Southern Baptist in the heart of the Bible Belt and can't name ten acquaintances that aren't Southern Baptist but he'll still point out that there are lots of "False Christians" about.

Some sects have/had actual limits. Jehovah's Witnesses had a limit of 144,000 (if I recall the number correctly) who will go to Heaven. Now I won't go out on a limb and claim this limit still exists, they do tend to change without notice.

I don't know but I suspect the whole "I've got it right while others are on the wrong track" need is a nearly universal trait of believers. So extending that to creating a Heaven as the ultimate exclusive club is pretty logical.

And then there's always that whole "who wants to die" thing. It's so final and I am quite special after all.