Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Minimalist · 02-18-2008, 06:05 PM

God told a lot of lies.....he's like a crooked politician.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-18-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

If the God of the Bible does not exist, he could not have inspired Ezekiel to write the Tyre prophecy. If he does exist, he inspired Ezekiel to write the Tyre prophecy, and he was at least deceptive regarding his apparent promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar to Tyre as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

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Originally Posted by mens sana

Johnny Skeptic has a peculiar line of reasoning here: If God exists, he inspired Zeke to write the Tyre prophecy.......

That is certainly a logical conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana.

......and because the prophecy failed, God lied. (Is that a fair summary?)

Yes, unless you have credible evidence that God gave Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre, which Ezekiel 29 promised he would do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

So, Zeke had nothing to do with it!

Of course Ezekiel had something to do with it, but God was doing the talking through him. Consider the following Scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (KJV).

2 Peter 1:20-21: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

It couldn't possibly be that Zeke was passing along a hellfire sermon, or just what he thought was on God's mind.

Not if the God of the Bible exists.

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

If God does NOT exist, Ezekiel is the one doing the talking.

That is true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

If God does exist, Zeke is still the guy doing the talking.

Literally yes, but as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 show, God was speaking through Ezekiel. If a God exists, and uses prophets to speak for him, it is reasonable to assume that he would ensure that they would say what he wanted them to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

The non/existence makes no difference.

Yes it does. A non-existent God could not inspire prophecies.

arnoldo · 02-18-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

God told a lot of lies.....he's like a crooked politician.

Yes God frequently tells lies and should destroy people without giving people a chance to repent.

Quote:

Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and proclaim to it the proclamation which I am going to tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three days’ walk. 4 Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

5 Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them. 6 When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered himself with sackcloth and sat on the ashes. 7 He issued a proclamation and it said, “In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water. 8 “But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands. 9 “Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.”
10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
~Jonah: 3

Johnny Skeptic · 02-18-2008, 06:31 PM

Message to arnoldo: Why would a God always make disuptable predictions when he could easily make indisputable predictions?

mens_sana · 02-18-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

By the way, you did not respond to there is no such character as the "God of the Bible"

Since you know that I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists, your comment was ridiculous.

Hardly. You must somehow have the "God of the Bible" in the back of your mind, else you could not be so sure that he lies.

However, I asked about the "character" termed God of the Bible and proposed that there is no such character. You haven't addressed that matter.

Minimalist · 02-18-2008, 10:22 PM

As the scholars say of Jonah, Arnoldo....

Quote:

The book itself was probably written in the post-exilic period (after 530 BC)

Pretty easy to make a prophecy 80 years after something happens. Hell...even god got that one right.

Minimalist · 02-18-2008, 10:35 PM

BTW, Pat Condell discussing "prophecies" among other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXdwcIWIB_o

Johnny Skeptic · 02-19-2008, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Since you know that I do not believe that the God of the Bible exists, your comment was ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

Hardly. You must somehow have the "God of the Bible" in the back of your mind, else you could not be so sure that he lies.

Not at all. The obvious implication of my arguments is that since the Bible says that God does not tell lies, and Nebuchadnezzar did not get Egypt, the God of the Bible does not exist. Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that I was just using a figure of speech. My viewer profile says that I am an agnostic, which I am. How many agnostics do you know who believe that the God of the Bible exists? Since the Bible says that God is perfect, and a perfect God would not tell lies, if I believed that the God of the Bible exists, I certainly would not be claiming that he told a lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

However, I asked about the "character" termed God of the Bible and proposed that there is no such character. You haven't addressed that matter.

I just did.

mens_sana · 02-22-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The obvious implication of my arguments is that since the Bible says that God does not tell lies, and Nebuchadnezzar did not get Egypt, the God of the Bible does not exist. Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that I was just using a figure of speech. My viewer profile says that I am an agnostic, which I am. How many agnostics do you know who believe that the God of the Bible exists? Since the Bible says that God is perfect, and a perfect God would not tell lies, if I believed that the God of the Bible exists, I certainly would not be claiming that he told a lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

However, I asked about the "character" termed God of the Bible and proposed that there is no such character. You haven't addressed that matter.

I just did.

Pardon me for being obtuse, but I sense a strawman. You don't believe in the God of the Bible, but you accept the God of the Bible in order to show that he lies.

But the point really is that the God of the Bible is a theological construct and "exists" only as an idea anyway. Hence, you invoke a fiction in order to debunk a fiction — never getting beyond the fiction at any point. Isn't this a Moebius argument?

Johnny Skeptic · 02-24-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mens sana

Pardon me for being obtuse, but I sense a strawman. You don't believe in the God of the Bible, but you accept the God of the Bible in order to show that he lies.

But the point really is that the God of the Bible is a theological construct and "exists" only as an idea anyway. Hence, you invoke a fiction in order to debunk a fiction — never getting beyond the fiction at any point. Isn't this a Moebius argument?

I assumed for the sake of argument that the God of the Bible exists in order to reasonably proves that he does not exist. The Bible says that God does not tell lies. The Bible also says that all prophecy comes from God, not from the minds of men. The Bible also says that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar. That did not happen. The logical conclusion is that the God of the Bible does not exist, not that he told a lie. Surely everyone except for you knew that I was not actually claiming that God told a lie. Just ask anyone and find out for yourself.

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02-18-2008, 06:05 PM	#21
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	God told a lot of lies.....he's like a crooked politician.

02-18-2008, 06:31 PM	#24
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Why would a God always make disuptable predictions when he could easily make indisputable predictions?

02-18-2008, 10:35 PM	#27
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	BTW, Pat Condell discussing "prophecies" among other things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXdwcIWIB_o

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