Mdahalishi Mjumbe

Thank you Sheshbazzar. I honestly tried to make all the verses fit in together as coherently as possible. It is hard to believe a religion that once had almost complete control of the daily lives, and deaths, of millions of people is based on this event.

Chili

Two things are wrong, you are mixing apples with oranges and there is a difference between 'critical view' and 'critical thinking'. In critical view you are part of the argument and in critical thinking you are not.

The fact that it was still dark for Mary Magdalene when she was alone after the sun had risen is a dead give away as to who she is and what this is all about. If then you know 'who' Magdalene is, you will also know 'who' Jesus is, and from there must neccessarily affirm the event in history, although historic it may not be as an event that is recordable so you can hang your hat on it.

The difference is that things belong to history as recorded in time with notoriety, while this event in John takes place where time is not recorded and so it was still dark for Magdalene who was left alone without the morning star to be her light by day. To confirm this please notice that she did indeed recognize Jesus when she heard his voice, to say that he was raised into the upper room where the light of common day is not and therefore she could not see, but still could hear and recognize Jesus that way, to so announces the seventh day where the light of common day was not and so it was not possible for darkeness to follow later to record a time in history.

So functionally then, the death of Jesus followed by his journey into the netherworld, or soul, is to disengage 'the old' so that life itself can be, and with that Magdalene goes as temple tramp in the consciuos mind were light was an illusion that was transformed by the other Mary who heretofore was the inspiration to give them light-in-time to play, and so is wherein their days are counted, that so here now means that they are no longer counted for 3 days in one to disolve the trinity and she was never part of that.

. . . and will always remember here the famous line in "Coriolanus" before Aufidius made his pivotal speach in IV.v.114-15: "[but] Know thou first, I loved the maid I married" . . . wherefore Valeria returned to Rome, for she was a darlin and a doll and so much 'fun for life,' to say that a vivid Eve is nice to have and therefore called valiant Valeria there [of Rome, against which Joseph was an upright Jew in Judaism here then], and hence the words of Jesus "do not cling to me . . .." So romantic are those words to say 'well done, and good for you.'

Oh, and then you are mixing apples with oranges because Matthew and Mark's Jesus can only be used to affirm Luke and John as he does not ascend and never will.

So then the sealing of the tomb is a matter of keeping daylight out [for Christ's sake], and so to 'place a guard' is to keep an eye on him and so 'keep the light on' and that so proves 'they did not fall asleep' (as I am sure aa5874 would like to read this ).

And please do not forget the declension of Gen.3:15 where Magdalene is designated as 'temple tramp' or lesser serpent to be eaten by the greater serpent and therefore went back to Rome in Coriolanus (if only to confirm that heaven is home in Rome).

James Brown

Check out Dan Barker's 'Easter Challenge' where he asks anyone to harmonize the several resurrection accounts into a coherent narrative. You gave a solid effort and discovered how difficult it is to accomplish.

Chili

Well if you have Magalene 'pinned down' it is not difficult at all, but notable is that Mary theotokos was not there in Luke as denoted by the 11 and Joanna here now was the mother of John to make that known.

The problem is that to do this would functionally burn 20.000 churches and that would created another civil war which is something that nobody needs today.

Bottom line is that Dan Barker is just a loud-mouth American who thinks he is the end of wisdom on his own, but in essence points his finger at America's national sin from all directions to put a dollar value on that to boot.

Davka

The OP is absolute bullshit.

First of all, the very idea of "Biblical evidence" is a crock. It would be more accurate to claim that the stories in the Bible, taken together, do or do not claim this or that. There is no "evidence" involved, only stories which are clearly a mish-mash of history and fiction - mostly fiction.

Secondly, to make the claim that the Bible stories do not claim the resurrection of Jesus is to ignore the content of the stories. By cherry-picking a single account, the OP harms rather than helps the case.

So let's look at each of the Gospel stories. First, establishing that the stories say Jesus died:

Mark:

When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. Pilate wondered if He was dead by this time, and summoning the centurion, he questioned him as to whether He was already dead. And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where He was laid.
Mark 15:42-47

Luke:

And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes.

And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Luke 23:50-56

Matthew:

When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away. And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the grave.
Matt. 27:57-61

So we see that the Synoptic Gospels agree that Jesus was dead. They disagree on many other details, but that Jesus was dead is most certainly part of the Bible stories.

Next, we establish that Jesus was alive again after dying.

Mark:

Now after He (Jesus) had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons. She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.

After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country. They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
Mark 16:9-12

Luke:

While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, "Peace be to you." But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.
Luke 24:36-43

Matthew:

But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
Matt. 28:16-18

So we see without question that the Synoptic Gospels agree that Jesus was alive again after he died. To claim that this is not "Bible proof" of the resurrection simply because there are no accounts of the actual resurrection itself is absurd. It's like claiming that a certain house was never actually built, because although we have "before" photos of the empty lot and "after" photos of a house on that lot, we have no photos of the building in progress, ergo the building did not take place.

As for John, the most embellished of the Gospels, it claims that Jesus was stabbed with a spear to make sure he was dead, and that later he cooked and ate some fish with Peter on the shores of the Kinneret (Galilee).

The Bible Stories agree: Jesus was dead. Later, Jesus was alive, and did various things to prove to the 12 that he was not a ghost. We see the person dead, and later the same person alive. The conclusion is inescapable: this person rose from the dead.

outhouse

LOL good one

spank you very much sir, may they have another :grin:

outhouse

I thought it was common knowledge there are two schools of thougt here.


A physical ressurrection

And a spiritual ressurrection

Toto

There are two schools of thought today about what early Christians believed back then - a physical or a spiritual resurrection.

There are many more schools of thought about what actually happened - resurrection as a supernatural event, or an emotional experience by the disciples, or a metaphor, or a fictional plot, or a mistake, or a hoax, or -- probably more.

Chili

I like the Joseph image myself who just happen to have a cave hewn with his own hands and in his own back yard, which is a sign that he was an 'ark builder' with confidence who was sure to reach the other side of life and so was a cave hewer as well, if only to make sure to have a place ready in gratitude to bury your ego in when you get there.

Davka

As Toto points out, there are indeed two schools of thought as to what the early church thought. Or, more accurately, there were two schools of thought among the early church. The Gnostics argued for a spiritual resurrection, not a physical one.

All of which is immaterial to what the Gospel stories say. The canon of scripture was established after the Gnostics lost the battle for Christian Orthodoxy, and thus reflect the "physical resurrection" side of the argument. Had the Gnostic Christians been politically victorious, we can assume that the canon would be quite different, and would reflect their theology.

But it doesn't.