Half-Life

Boy, Jesus must have had a rough few days.

First, he gets crucified for all of humanity. Then, he goes through the trouble of showing up to Mary Magdalene who mistakes him for the gardener. Then, he shows up to the disciples and some believe, but some still doubt. Then according to John, Thomas says he won't believe unless he sees the nail marks. Jesus must've been in deep thought about appearing to Thomas because John says that a week went by and then Jesus appeared to Thomas and showed him his wounds.

Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

You would think at some point Jesus would get fed up with all his disciples and Mary doubting him and all.

Maybe at some point he said, "Why did I even bother going through all this trouble for you guys, huh? I raise myself from the dead and I told you it would happen and you still treat me like I'm a stranger. WHY oh WHY did I get into this God business? Can anyone tell me why?!?!?!" :Cheeky:

dr lazer blast

those major points are in the process of being ironed out right now, so I don't see your point there. Like I said initially, it is not going to be perfect the first time I write it down. In response to this.

We are not going by the rules christsmyth's easter challenge, we are going by the rules of Dan Barker easter challenge.

Furthermore you telling me to not 'read into something that isn't there' is a ridiculous statement and a loaded conclusion. What pray tell is your definition of 'reading into something that isn't there?' how do you know what is there or is not there?

Amaleq13

You are misusing this term as well. I'm simply informing you that traumatic experiences are something with which I have been professionally familiar for nearly twenty years. If you lack a similar professional experience, then I am quite legitimately a greater authority on the subject than yourself.

That was for the disciples, not the women. The women understood that the angel(s) had told them Jesus was alive.

"And when they [the women] found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive."(24:23).

The women understood that the angels claimed Jesus was alive.

One doesn't refer to a living person as "the body" nor, more directly relevant, does one wonder where a live person has been "laid". Try again.

You keep avoiding the point and focusing elsewhere despite the fact that I keep repeating it.

Joy and doubt are incompatible reactions.

Your "research" into the incompatibility of fear and doubt was a complete waste of your time.

Not because the angels told them Jesus was alive? We've already seen above that they clearly understood this to be the message. That really makes no sense. You are avoiding the obvious.

I think you've got it backwards. The fear connects to the angels while the joy obviously connects to the good news that Jesus wasn't dead.

No, we've already seen that they understood Jesus was alive.

Of course they were. That's why the angels reassured her (them). How does this support your point?

Yes, and that passages supports my claim that their fear connects to the angel(s).

Obviously, the reassurance of the angel(s) that Jesus was alive. It makes sense for them to continue to be afraid because the angel(s) continued to be messengers of God.

Yes and that continues to be inconsistent with Mary's concern and question.

Her joyful reaction connects directly to the good news that Jesus was alive and her fearful reaction connects directly to interacting with a messenger of God. What continues to not connect is Mary's subsequent concern that someone had taken Jesus' body.

Keith&Co.

I wasn't referring to the emotions. But when Mary at one point is told Jesus is alive (with a joyful reaction that tends to indicate she accepted the account), then later refers to where they stowed his body, that's incompatible.
Wingnut is making much hay out of emotional reactions but missing the big picture.

No. But to believe that the Books is a divinely inspired account of an actual event, they can't have incompatible details.

Kharakov

I don't know, I think I'd remember the last words of my friend the same as any other witness. I don't think I'd leave any out either. It appears you don't think the apostles considered what they believed to be Jesus' last words to be very important? Perhaps you stipulate they forgot because of the shock of the resurrection? What else did they get wrong do to their experiences? Does this invalidate everything they wrote, is a little correct, but some a little iffy?

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.

when, therefore, Jesus received the vinegar, he said, `It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit.

Half-Life

Hey Kharakov,

Go to page 5 of this thread to post #109. I answered this question in the form of "apologetics."

What do you think?

ChristMyth

What exactly needs to be ironed out? From what I can read, the texts are quite clear as to what they say. Also, I understand that this is a work in process, so, take your time and try to learn from those around you.

Agreed. Let's look at those rules again:

All I have done is to list the facts of each text in question. I have not asked you to stray from the rules of the game, simply gave you a hand in your endeavor. The rules specifically state that not one single detail be omitted. I have listed those details for you to use.

The fact that you have to ask this question saddens me. If its in the text, then its there. If it isn't, well.....it isn't. You cannot, as a example, have a time travel show up and sweep Mary M. into a time machine to give her enough time to go and see Peter and stay at the tomb at the same time to meet the angels. While I'm sure that it would make a very interesting apologetic, the story just doesn't allow time travel without a very good explanation to back it up.

Christmyth

Net2004

"Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. 5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you." 8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. 9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."

where in the account is there any hint that mary magdalene left the scene to report to peter that the body had been stolen? between which 2 verses do you want to wedge in that mary madgalene left the scene? english isn't my first language but i can see that the pronouns mentioned in the account clearly refer to the women who are mentioned in verse 1.

Net2004

11 But R1269 Mary was standing outside the tomb weeping; and so, as she wept, she stooped R1270 and looked into the tomb; 12 and she saw two R1271 angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they said to her, "Woman, R1272 why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they R1273 have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him." 14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw R1274 Jesus standing there, and did R1275 not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, R1276 why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, "Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in R1277 Hebrew, F215 "Rabboni!" R1278 (which means, Teacher).

where in verse 13 do the angels tell mary m that the guy disguised as a garderner, standing behind her, is jesus? she learns nothing about the ressurection of jesus from the angels.if she did she would not ask jesus where they have placed his body.why would she assume that it was possible for the garderner to "carry away" jesus? in context does it make sense that the risen body was carried away? and why would she want to take away a risen body?

Net2004

11 But R1269 Mary was standing outside the tomb weeping; and so, as she wept, she stooped R1270 and looked into the tomb; 12 and she saw two R1271 angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they said to her, "Woman, R1272 why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they R1273 have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him." 14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw R1274 Jesus standing there, and did R1275 not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, R1276 why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, "Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in R1277 Hebrew, F215 "Rabboni!" R1278 (which means, Teacher).

if we were to play your game then how do we know that the noun and pronouns highlighted in the account are refering to mary magdalene?
why not the other mary?