Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 06-19-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Case in point is GDon's obsession with the Pygmy issue. That's not even what her book is about but, leave it to GDon to turn it into something it isn't. So, maybe she'll re-phrase the bit on Pygmies to make it "idiot proof" or possibly remove it altogether in the Christ Conspiracy 2nd edition.

Why would she need to do that? What do you personally find is problematic with her stance on the Pygmy issue? As Acharya writes (my emphasis):

In reality, the Pygmies provide a key piece of the puzzle, as many of their ancient traditions are basically the same as those of the cultures that succeeded them. We have already seen that they were pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross. (Page 288)

So it is not off-topic for this forum, assuming what she wrote has some factual content behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Here's another example of intellectual dishonesty by GDon where he quotes Acharya's article titled, 'Mysteries of the World.' GDon says "Acharya makes a strange connection between "little people" and "aliens":

"Mummified remains of little people or "aliens" are reported to be found in caves or in Tibetan monasteries. "

GDon conveniently skips the fact that Acharya was quoting someone else, who was properly cited...

"Properly cited"? There was no citation given for that statement, just a list of books at the bottom. Can you tell me where the reports that "Mummified remains of little people or "aliens" can be found in caves or in Tibetan monasteries" come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

... and he also skips this quote from the top of that list:

Quote:

"(The following list represents reportage of apparent phenomena, not an opinion or endorsement as to whether or not they have actually happened or are "real.")"

I think Toto said it best earlier. Acharya S isn't sufficiently critical of her sources. If Acharya S hasn't researched this for herself, what is the point of the list?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Acharya herself doesn't even use the word "alien" anywhere in that article. She is quoting others, which GDon completely failed to note.

She DOES use the word "alien". Here is the link and here is the quote:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mysteries.htm

Mummified remains of little people or "aliens" are reported to be found in caves or in Tibetan monasteries.

Who is she quoting there? If I wanted to follow up, where would I find the evidence for that claim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Once again as per usual, all this Pygmy stuff should be moved into the proper Pygmy thread as it's an off-topic distraction here in what is otherwise a decent thread.

How can a claim that the Pygmies are possibly "the progenitor of western culture and, therefore, the Judeo-Christian tradition" be off-topic??? Dave, if you agree with the following statement, then I agree we need never bring up the topic of Pygmies on the "Biblical Criticism & History" board again:

* There is no evidence that the Pygmies were "pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross", and no evidence that the Pygmies believed in a Pygmy Adam and a Pygmy Christ born of a Pygmy Virgin, and no evidence that the Pygmies had an ancient advanced global civilization that spread these ideas throughout the world; other than the unverified words of someone who lived with the Pygmies.

If you disagree, then let's discuss the evidence.

Dave31 · 06-19-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

GakuseiDon "Why would she need to do that? What do you personally find is problematic with her stance on the Pygmy issue? In fact, why not start a new thread on this topic, Dave, and let's thrash out those issues? As Acharya writes (my emphasis):

In reality, the Pygmies provide a key piece of the puzzle, as many of their ancient traditions are basically the same as those of the cultures that succeeded them. We have already seen that they were pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross. (Page 288)

So it is not off-topic for this forum. I doubt you'll find many will be convinced, but it might be fascinating to see you try. And you know, I've always learned something in these encounters when both parties are debating seriously. "

I don't have a problem with her position on the Pygmy issue. I have a problem with your straw man use of it attempting to misconstrue what she's actually trying to convey into some UFO trip so you can ridicule her for a position that she does not have. That is what I find off-topic. You couldn't care less about the Pygmy issue; you're only interested in it to bludgeon Acharya with it. I welcome sincere discussion of the Pygmy issue but, not if people are going to be dishonest about it. You already have a thread on this so there's no need for me or anybody else to create another one.

Quote:

GakuseiDon "There was no citation given for that statement, just a list of books at the bottom. Can you tell me where the reports that "Mummified remains of little people or "aliens" can be found in caves or in Tibetan monasteries" come from?"

I already did. Go back and read my post #92.

Quote:

"These "fortean" events or items, named by Charles Fort "the procession of the damned," ... (The following list represents reportage of apparent phenomena, not an opinion or endorsement as to whether or not they have actually happened or are "real.")"
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mysteries.htm

Quote:

GakuseiDon "She DOES use the word "alien"."

No, she does not - it's part of the list described above by Charles Fort and the other books mentioned.

The Tibetans themselves apparently have a long history of discussing "alien" beings. If GD has a problem with them discussing "aliens," then he needs to take it up with THEM - http://indiadaily.com/editorial/12-26-04.asp

Quote:

"In 1938 a complex system of artificially carved tunnels and caves was discovered in the remote region of Baian-Kara-Ula in the Himalayas, on the borders of China and Tibet. Inside the caves were several neatly arranged burial chambers containing the remains of a mysterious pygmy race called the Dropa."

http://www.consciousape.com/discussi...liens-of-tibet

mountainman · 06-19-2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

There IS a limit to Acharya's credulity.

There is a limit to everyone's credulity ApostateAbe. None of us perfect like yourself and GakuseiDon when it comes to the task of refuting mythicists. Doherty and Acharya are not pygmy minds, but I am starting to wonder about their frantic detractors.

GakuseiDon · 06-19-2011, 05:24 PM

I'll make this my last post on this topic here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

GakuseiDon "There was no citation given for that statement, just a list of books at the bottom. Can you tell me where the reports that "Mummified remains of little people or "aliens" can be found in caves or in Tibetan monasteries" come from?"

I already did. Go back and read my post #92.

C'mon, you know exactly what I'm asking for. WHICH of those books is Acharya S using for that information? You know that she is constantly criticized for not being selective with her sources. If she is repeating something she herself hasn't verified, all the more reason for her to provide the exact citation.

For what it's worth, here are the books she lists at the end of her article, with my comments in brackets afterwards:

Not of This World by Peter Kosimo (actually Acharya S mis-spells the name. Peter Kolosimo was the Italian Erich von Daniken, i.e. ancient astronaut theory proponent)
Disneyland of the Gods by John Keel (Mothman himself!)
The Complete Books of Charles Fort (Fort, God bless him)
Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock ('Atlantis' proponent apparently. I don't know him)
Forbidden Archeology by Thompson & Cremo (Michael Cremo is an American who is a Hindu creationist. He believes that humans have been on earth for possibly billions of years, but according to Wiki "the scientific establishment has suppressed the fossil evidence of extreme human antiquity." Fascinating!)
The Lost Cities series by David Childress (According to Wiki: "an American author and publisher of books on topics in alternative history and historical revisionism. His works cover such subjects as pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact, Nikola Tesla, the Knights Templar, lost cities and vimana aircraft.")
Chariots of the Gods by Erich von Daniken (the German Peter Kolosimo)
Atlantis: The Eighth Continent by Charles Berlitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

No, she does not - it's part of the list described above by Charles Fort and the other books mentioned.

Well, which one? If Acharya S is simply taking bits and pieces from anywhere, without verifying or even clearly citing where she gets the information from, doesn't that concern you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

The Tibetans themselves apparently have a long history of discussing "alien" beings. If GD has a problem with them discussing "aliens," then he needs to take it up with THEM - http://indiadaily.com/editorial/12-26-04.asp

Dave, that article is entitled, "Remote viewing Tibetan monks see Extra Terrestrial powers saving the World from destroying itself in 2012". I haven't laughed at an article title for so long in ages!

The article states: "Scientific interpretation of the monks’ statements makes it evident that the Extra Terrestrial powers are watching us every step of the way. They will intervene in 2012 and save the world from self-destruction."

Are you recommending this article as a credible source? I guess if science is involved...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

"In 1938 a complex system of artificially carved tunnels and caves was discovered in the remote region of Baian-Kara-Ula in the Himalayas, on the borders of China and Tibet. Inside the caves were several neatly arranged burial chambers containing the remains of a mysterious pygmy race called the Dropa."

http://www.consciousape.com/discussi...liens-of-tibet

From the article that YOU >

< provided (my emphasis):

In 1938 a complex system of artificially carved tunnels and caves was discovered in the remote region of Baian-Kara-Ula in the Himalayas, on the borders of China and Tibet. Inside the caves were several neatly arranged burial chambers containing the remains of a mysterious pygmy race called the Dropa.

According to local legend, the Dropa were extraterrestrials who crash-landed in the region around 10,000 BCE, and who were hunted down and killed by the indigenous Ham tribe because they appeared so strange.

Legend says they were between 2ft and 4ft tall, frail and sinewy with very large heads and eyes—not unlike today’s descriptions of grey aliens.
...
As they rummaged deeper in the caves one of the archeologists discovered a strange stone disk which had evidently been fashioned by hand and etched with a fine ‘groove’, so that it looked like an old-school vinyl record.

Further rummaging eventually unearthed a total of 716 of these strange disks, and what’s more, closer scrutiny revealed that the ‘groove’ was not a simple groove after all, but a spiral-shaped series of tiny hieroglyphs depicting this people’s origins in the stars and their journey to earth in a spaceship 12,000 years ago.

Remarkably, the disks were later scientifically dated, and were found to be between 10,000 and 12,000 years old.

That IS remarkable! And if science is involved... !

So you offer this in order to REFUTE the idea of the link between "little people" and "aliens"? Acharya S rejects the idea of extra-terrestrials visiting earth, and believes the "sky people" to be remnants of an ancient advanced Global civilization. What do you think Dave? If the disks were actually scientifically verified, who then were the Dropa?

Anyway, unless someone else brings up the topic of the Pygmies' ancient advanced Global Civilization, I'll make this my last post on this topic here. Dave, the floor is yours.

ApostateAbe · 06-19-2011, 05:35 PM

This looks to be too much fun. I would be more than happy to play with Dave31 on this topic.

aa5874 · 06-19-2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I feel in my gut that there is a "New God" out there, born around 100 years ago, which is in harmony with the modern zeitgeist and which will sweep the world. What the New God is, I have no idea. The only Western candidates I can think of are Scientology and a "scientized" Buddhism, along the lines expressed by Sam Harris. But whoever the New God is, it will be "scientized". As scientism gains popularity, so will the New God.

You prefer the "Old God"?

The people who worship STONES as Gods must have felt like you do now.

Dave31 · 06-19-2011, 06:42 PM

Yes GDon, I knew you and AAbe would trip all over yourselves with those articles. You guys are so easy. It's precisely what you guys wanted, right? I thought something like this would be right down your alley - "Remote viewing Tibetan monks see Extra Terrestrial powers saving the World from destroying itself in 2012"

I thought you could use it with the rest of your looney arguments on Pygmies and figure out a way to blame it all on Acharya like you did in your totally intellectually dishonest article. I mean, that's what you specialize in, right?

You paid no attention at all to these when I shared them -

Quote:

"Python Cave" Reveals Oldest Human Ritual, Scientists Suggest

"A team of archaeologists has discovered what it says is evidence of humankind's oldest ritual. Africa's San people may have used a remote cave for ceremonies of python worship as much as 70,000 years ago—30,000 years earlier than the oldest previously known human rites—the team says."

"And the team unearthed spearheads identical to those found at another site in Botswana, which had been dated to 77,000 years ago."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...on-ritual.html

Quote:

Scientists find first known human ritual

"A startling discovery of 70,000-year-old artifacts and a python's head carved of stone appears to represent the first known human rituals."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15970442//

Quote:

How a hobbit is rewriting the history of the human race

Sunday 21 February 2010

"The discovery of the bones of tiny primitive people on an Indonesian island six years ago stunned scientists. Now, further research suggests that the little apemen, not Homo erectus, were the first to leave Africa and colonise other parts of the world, reports Robin McKie"

"Thus, ancient African apemen travelled half the world, made homes across Indonesia and, in one case, were washed out to sea to end up colonising a remote island that was already populated with pygmy elephants, called stegadons, and giant Komodo dragons, which are still found on the island. It is a truly fantastic tale, worthy of Rider Haggard, and it has turned the study of human evolution on its head."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ory-human-race

:huh:

aa5874 · 06-19-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

...Anyway, unless someone else brings up the topic of the Pygmies' ancient advanced Global Civilization, I'll make this my last post on this topic here. Dave, the floor is yours.

You believe in Jesus Christ and in the Bible Jesus was some kind of a SPACE ALIEN or Heavenly Alien.

It is DOCUMENTED.

1Th 4:16 -

Quote:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first...

You know that some Christians Believe Jesus Christ lives somewhere in SPACE with other ALIENS.

GakuseiDon · 06-19-2011, 06:59 PM

Well, since the posts have been split out, no harm in continuing on in this new thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Yes GDon, I knew you and AAbe would trip all over yourselves with those articles. You guys are so easy. It's precisely what you guys wanted, right? I thought something like this would be right down your alley - "Remote viewing Tibetan monks see Extra Terrestrial powers saving the World from destroying itself in 2012"

I thought you could use it with the rest of your looney arguments on Pygmies and figure out a way to blame it all on Acharya like you did in your totally intellectually dishonest article.

"Blame it all on Acharya"? Blame WHAT on her? Your comments make no sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

You paid no attention at all to these when I shared them -

Quote:

"Python Cave" Reveals Oldest Human Ritual, Scientists Suggest

"A team of archaeologists has discovered what it says is evidence of humankind's oldest ritual. Africa's San people may have used a remote cave for ceremonies of python worship as much as 70,000 years ago—30,000 years earlier than the oldest previously known human rites—the team says."

"And the team unearthed spearheads identical to those found at another site in Botswana, which had been dated to 77,000 years ago."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...on-ritual.html

Quote:

How a hobbit is rewriting the history of the human race

Sunday 21 February 2010

"The discovery of the bones of tiny primitive people on an Indonesian island six years ago stunned scientists. Now, further research suggests that the little apemen, not Homo erectus, were the first to leave Africa and colonise other parts of the world, reports Robin McKie"

"Thus, ancient African apemen travelled half the world, made homes across Indonesia and, in one case, were washed out to sea to end up colonising a remote island that was already populated with pygmy elephants, called stegadons, and giant Komodo dragons, which are still found on the island. It is a truly fantastic tale, worthy of Rider Haggard, and it has turned the study of human evolution on its head."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ory-human-race

Well, we have this whole thread to discuss this.

What part of Acharya S's theories do those articles support? Ancient advanced Pygmy civilization? Sky people? Pygmies as being the progenitors of Judeo-Christian beliefs? What? And, more importantly, WHY do they support her theories?

ApostateAbe · 06-19-2011, 07:11 PM

Darn it, GakuseiDon, I thought you would let me drive.

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06-19-2011, 05:35 PM	#35
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	This looks to be too much fun. I would be more than happy to play with Dave31 on this topic.

06-19-2011, 07:11 PM	#40
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Darn it, GakuseiDon, I thought you would let me drive.

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