Vorkosigan

Can you find that thread?

Vorkosigan

ApostateAbe

No, I personally don't view the Gethsemane scene as historical--it was just a myth--but the relevant point is that the ancient Christians apparently believed that it was the historical truth. Toto claimed, "The 'explanation' that there was a historical founder of the cult would predict an earlier mention of this leader," and so it is irrelevant whether or not whatever they would say about the historical founder be true or false. The relevant alternative explanation (yours) would have it that the early Christians didn't even believe in a historical founder, and the bad argument to this conclusion is that the Christians were silent about the historical Jesus. If they were mistaken about the historical Jesus, then they were not silent.

aa5874

But, you believe that there was an historical Jesus even though virtually all events surrounding Jesus are KNOWN Fiction.

Can there be a worst argument?

Of course not.

andrewcriddle

The discussion I'm afraid occurs in the middle of (long) threads mainly discussing other things.

History Channel Special
Blog entry on mythicism
The mythicist position

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Thanks. I appreciate that very much.

Vorkosigan

PhilosopherJay

Hi Jiri,

Thanks for connecting the Gethsemane scene to the end of the Little Apocalypse.

That scene also connects fear and falling asleep.


Here's another tale from Mark alone that connects fear and sleep:

One more story in Mark relates sleep and fear, this time fear of death:

This is a little different in that sleeping turns out to be a good thing, as the child was only sleeping and not dead. The child's sleeping is associated with the father's fear that the child has died.

Fear, sleeping and death is also associated in the ending of Mark:

The implication is not that Jesus has risen from the dead, there's nothing about him returning to life. The phrase "He has risen" implies that he was sleeping like the daughter of the synagogue ruler. The young man is certainly meant to be Jesus who apparently had the ability to change his appearance.

One may suppose that author of this gospel himself had a sleeping disorder.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Solo

Hi Jay,

there is something about the nocturnal settings in the gospels, isn't it ? All the miracoulous happenings and the scary things happen between sunset and dawn. The stilling of the storm, Jesus walking on the water, the feeding of the mutitudes (the first one in Mark happens when the hour is late), Jesus trial before the Sanhedrin (against all customs), Peter's denial, women discovering the empty tomb. Jesus looking for figs in Matthew is in an early morning setting, Luke ties the Transfiguration to the sleeplessness of the three disciples. Baby Jesus is delivered at night with Luke's shepherds watching over their sheep 24/7 apparently (2:8-9). ...Don't sleep at night says Paul, For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (1 Th 5:2) , or Luke(12:35-40): Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning, and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the marriage feast, so they may open to him at once when he knocks. Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly I say to you he will gird himself and have them sit at the table and he will come and serve them. If he comes in the second watch, or in the third and finds them so, blessed are those servants. But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house be broken into. You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.

So this all ties to the Gethsemane scene, which is actually quite clever allegorical setting - an allusion exactly to the same thing as Jesus being awaken from his only nap in the gospel (!) on the stormy sea. I don't know if you know my little theory (my book should be out by May next year): the gospel stories are an itinerary of the spirit's journey - roughly an episode of manic excitement from its sudden activation to its end in psychotic terror and shame.

The significance of the night settings vis-a-vis insomnia or disturbed sleep is this - 80% of all seizures or abnormal temporal lobe activity, happen at night, with about half between 2 am - 6 am (we do not have data from some regions, but this holds true for the Americas, Europe, Japan and Australia). The gospels describe the abnormal or paranormal states that result from temporal lobe disturbances which create the internal effect of the 'supernatural'. Some people can actually learn how to produce these labilities - and trip in ways most people can't imagine. The early Christians apparently forced themselves not to sleep (which you do not have to force when you are hyper) to get the brain chemistry needed for their visions and oracular experience. The gospels are about that - Jesus is just a code name.

This is a lovely story but I am afraid it is not about fear of death. Mark gives a very interesting description of what is known as manic (or depressive) stupor, when a patient appears lifeless just before he/she switches to active manic state. Here is a description from a medical compendium:

The two hugely interesting things about this story are the onlookers laughing at Jesus when he says she is only sleeping. Mark sometimes switches pronouns to different actors in the story without warning - this is one such instance. Now, imagine the situation. A girl is dead or everyone thinks so. That's sad, sad. Jesus - the famed healer - raises hope of the aggrieved when he says she is only sleeping.... and some of the onlookers go ha-ha-ha. Que pasa ? Are these some loose canons in Mark's Jesus group therapy ? Is this just a comedy of the absurd ? Second, why would the little damsel back from the dead not ask for food herself ? Why is that some people forget to eat when they are around Jesus ? (3:20, 6:31, 8:2). Makes it easier to feed the 5000 of them on scraps, isn't it ? Funny stuff, this !

You bet, some of us do. I developped my oracular connections when I used to program computers. I would go three-four days without sleep, hacking away. I would wake up at 1 or 2 in the morning with new fantastic solutions to impossible problems that came to me in my dreams. Most of the time they worked. After one such binge - at an end of an programming contract in 1984, I went on a short vacation. When I came back, the RCMP special detachment wanted to talk to me about a letter to John Paul II. that I slipped under the door of a former Canadian prime minister's house. I told the two officers that he agreed to deliver it and Henry Kissinger would confirm that. I gave the two officers' the former secretary of state's phone number I calculated from the secret code in Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.

Boy, your brain can do amazing things. And if you don't believe it or are ashamed of it , Jesus said, you can go to hell ! Yes, that's right ! BTW, when Jesus was done with me in two months, I was 30 pounds lighter.

Jiri

bacht

Slightly OT but I did a quick scan thru Mark and I counted six trips back and forth across the lake of Galilee. These guys really liked boats...

PhilosopherJay

Hi Jiri,

Interesting stuff. I reread "Cat's Cradle" last year and found it still is entertaining.

I tend to find better solutions when I sleep more, so I advocate extra sleep rather than sleep deprivation. Rene DeCarte slept 12 hours a day and came up with analytical geometry.


To return to the opening post, the single line "this generation shall not pass away until all these things be accomplished." remains the sole line that the First century dating or misdating of the gospels are staked on. Overwhelmingly strong evidence that nobody quotes the gospels as gospels for a century or more is then dismissed with absurd/odd propositions that they had no authority behind them (thus admitting that John, Mark, Matthew and Luke are pseudonyms of unknown authors).

This is handled as if this line interpretation were a straightforward proposition. Mark has seen "X" (terrestrial-historical) events within one generation and he has Jesus predicting them. There are also "Y" (celestial-supernatural) events that have not happened. Mark would not have had Jesus predicting these if he did not believe they would come true inside of one generation (about 40 years) from Jesus' death.

Thus Mark is portrayed as an apocalyptic prophet who is predicting the apocalypse. There is this subtle shift from Jesus being an apocalyptic prophet to Mark being an apocalyptic prophet. I would like to know where else is Mark an apocalyptic prophet in the text to back up this interpretation?

My interpretation is that Luke has mixed up Mark historical prediction material and Matthew apocalyptic prediction material. Mark's line originally only refered to events that had taken place around 70 or 135 CE. This solution explains this line without suddenly making Mark ad hoc into an apocalyptic prophet in order to date/misdate the gospels.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

aa5874

Again, you promote Speculation not "explanation".

It is the evidence that is SELF-EXPLANATORY.

We have four versions of Myth fables in the NT.

We know they are Myth fables because the main character called Jesus Christ was DESCRIBED as the Child of the Holy Ghost, the Word that was God and the Creator of heaven and earth.

This Jesus Christ was "WITNESSED", was supposedly ACTUALLY SEEN by his disciples, Participating in Fictional events, in events that NEVER happened from Conception to Ascension.

The Jesus stories are SELF-EXPLANATORY.

They are SIMPLY Myth Fables that people of antiquity BELIEVED just like they Believed hundreds of Myth fables about Greek/Roman myth characters in the 1st century.