Steven Avery

Please.. You are talking as if you have done a dozen explorations in the Gulf of Aqaba.
1) How do you know about the fragility and equipment and personnel
they had.
2) What do you know about their legality/permits with the Egyptian or
Saudi governments ?

#2 was always an issue in any work in the Red Sea ..

Keep in mind that Ron was always accused on these issues, on both ends.
If he didn't take something ..
"wheres the evidence"
When he did...
"wheres your permit or right to do that/you broke the law"

So it is easy to make comments from a distance.

True, especially if there is only one in the region.
These types of issues are discussed in other long threads. So for now I would prefer not to reinvent the chariot wheel.

Maybe we both should go over the long EVC thread first (I have not, dunno about you) and then develop questions remaining. Then those questions that are most pertinent could be examined, discussing with those fairly knowledgable. On the pristine wheel, I dunno yet if that came up, although I did send an email to Lennart.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

yummyfur

Well I have about 20 years of field archeology experience, starting when I was 10 and spending the whole summer at the Center for American Archeology. I'm from the same town that Stuart Stuever was raised, and my parents knew his parents, so I would stay pretty much at Kampsville or Crow Canyon the whole summer, through high school. I was then working towards a Phd but then I got a really bad case of Lyme disease, which pretty much knocked that out of the water.

All field archeology requires numerous permit(besides the obvious, often environmental, water, zoning/construction), but these are not major hurdles as far as money goes. My guess is that he would have actually needed some kind of survey permit, just to do the exploration that he did. It wouldn't be that hard to get a permit to bring up one small piece, like that wheel. The cost to preserve a wooden chariot wheel in PEG, and then maybe freeze dry it wouldn't be that much, and most likely Egyptian or Saudi Arabian Antiquities would foot the bill if it was really that old, as they would be the owners and interested in preserving it as well. If it wasn't that old no need to freeze dry it, or keep up the PEG. There is some concern about preserving more modern wrecks for tourist scuba divers, and marine habitat preservation, but if the permit was just for that wheel only, I think they would be fine.

My guess is the accusations about not having permits is that usually it is required to have some kind of professional archeologist onboard. These really are not that hard to come by or that expensive to hire for short term work, though I'm guessing they would avoid obvious con artists. My guess is that Wyatt made more money from all his crap, than most archeologists get as grant money for excavations.

Sauron

1. I disagree that this is what happened. But even if it is, so what? That is precisely the standard of evidence that you offer us, in regards to these alleged "artifacts." Sauce for the goose.

2. Now show someone got burned. That was your claim, if you remember.

Lennart's credentials?

Irrelevant, since that was not my question. Once again:

show archaeological evidence to support the claim of Egyptian chariot wheels from this time period being crafted in metal.

Please note that funerary objects in tombs do not count; they were often crafted solely for the purpose of being objects or trinkets inside the tomb, and were not functional in their respective purposes. There are boats made of gold or other stones (marble, onxy, etc.) Do you actually think they would float?

Oh, please. Copying and pasting a long list of authors from:

1. a creation-evolution website peddling this same nonsense, that
2. you yourself have never read the works cited by these authors

is not sufficient. This is your argument; if you are going to cite these authors as supporting that view, then you need to cite them directly. Creationists and crackpots are well-known to quote mine and take statements deliberately out of context.

Moreover, I am not merely talking about using iron in chariot construction. The ENTIRE WHEEL in the undersea photo is metallic. You need to show, using archaeology and other contemporary objects, that Egyptians of that time period crafted ENTIRE CHARIOT WHEELS OF METAL.

ENTIRE WHEELS.

Good luck. :rolling:

I don't have to make any such claim. Your claim - the burden of proof is on your back, not mine.

You have offered a piece of "evidence" that is metallic. It is up to you to demonstrate that the article is indicative of military weaponry of that time period and culture.

Sunk boats (and their cargo, etc.) are sufficient. You'll find that WW2 ships sunk in the South Pacific are already so thoroughly encrusted and rusting that they are falling apart.

or you can look at items from sunken ships such as the Atocha. Before being cleaned off, they are utterly unrecognizable anymore.

Finally, you can look at sunken Roman-era trading ships in the Mediterranean.

The problem is that all these sources show massive rusting, degredation, encrustation with sea organisms, etc. Yet you would have us believe that a 3200 year old chariot wheel still has the glint of metal on it.

Jedi Mind Trick

I'd say that any creationist would be ecstatic with Wyatt's claims... if they were true. But to their own disappointment they have to debunk one of their own because of what they see as obvious fraud. It is good to see that they are objective about it though.

Jedi Mind Trick

Funny how the "axle" and some of the other "wheels" are all encrusted with corral and then---Look! Why... there is this stunningly clean and shiny wheel! Glory to God!

Kosh

:huh: Well hey, it works for the Gospels!

yummyfur

This can be even more strongly stated, as there were no functional chariot wheels anywhere(even outside Egypt or at differnet times) crafted completely from metal, that is, for the spokes, hub, outer wheel(fellies) and tire. Some chariots had metal as a kind of tire on the wooden outside wheel(fellies), and some had metal hubs. But no chariot wheel would be constructed completely from metal; tire, outer wheel(fellies),spokes and hub, as this would completely suck, to put it bluntly. Cast metal is incredibly brittle, and it's hard to see how one would forge a complete wheel in the ancient world. Beside the fact that this would be incredibly heavy, and costly, without much increase in strength over wood, or especially wood outer wheel(fellies) and spokes with a metal tire and hub(or even a wooden hub lined on the axle hole with metal). This is how wheelwrights made wheels up till the 20th century, and for good reason.

The known working Chariots from tombs in Egypt, including the six from Tutankhamen's tomb are made from wood and leather, and have metal coverings over wood only for the axle and inside the hub where it attaches to the axle. These have gilt, which is just a paper thin covering of gold, for decoration - obviously gold being very heavy, would never be used in any quantity on a chariot.

Sven

"Claimed"?

This is more appropriate:

A major article is of course still much less than an entire book.

RED DAVE

praxeus, looking at the Exodus, from the other end, the conquest of Canaan, how do you, with yor Biblical inerrancy, account for the fact that there is no evidence for a systematic, violent conquest of Canaan?

No conquest of Canaan, no Exodus. No Exodus, no charot wheel as Wyatt describes and ascribes it.

RED DAVE

Sauron

Prediction: praxeus will vanish for several weeks.

After that, he'll pop up on some other BBS making the same statements, oblivious to the monster-truck sized holes that we have shot through his "evidence".