Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-01-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafcadio

While talking about ordinary people, during Medieval age they had same or even worse life than in antiquity. Feudal revolution had its high price.

The medieval population was about three times higher than the Roman one just before the Black Death. That's a pretty good indication that things were much better for most people even if they were pretty crappy by our standards.

Best wishes

Bede

Lafcadio · 11-01-2005, 08:23 AM

Quote:

The medieval population was about three times higher than the Roman one just before the Black Death. That's a pretty good indication that things were much better for most people even if they were pretty crappy by our standards.

Well, populations grow and fall in time. And that not to counter exterior factors (like the migrations). Classical Rome's population (in Italic peninsula to keep a fair comparision) was much larger than the one existing in the same territory around 1000 BC.
To prove that a social and economic prosperity is the cause an argument must be significantly more solid.

Wads4 · 11-01-2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Well, the evidence for her is pretty minimal....

Yeah she existed, but the Celtic female warrior is largely a thing legend, I imagine. Sort of the thing the Romans would frighten their children with ... "These Celts are so fierce even their women do the fighting." It's like the amazons who were certainly legendary.

Best wishes

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

I believe Tacitus in the "Agricola and the Germania", describes British women of his time as "ugly and bad-tempered", and by inference, militaristic. I thought Boudicca was reliably historical,-who else then burned London and Colchester and was defeated by Suetonius in 61 AD? Anyway, we have a nice big statue of her in her chariot on Westminster bridge.

11-01-2005, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafcadio

Well, populations grow and fall in time. And that not to counter exterior factors (like the migrations). Classical Rome's population (in Italic peninsula to keep a fair comparision) was much larger than the one existing in the same territory around 1000 BC.

I have little doubt Roman life was an improvement on 1000BC. The link between population and wellbing is fairly well accepted although you are right that we need to factor in other factors. For another itme, perhaps.

B

Lafcadio · 11-01-2005, 08:55 AM

AFAIK the life expectancy in Classical age was significantly higher than the one of the not-yet-historic European cultures and I guess those apeducts had a role and were not purely decorative

Amaleq13 · 11-01-2005, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafcadio

And this is one part of a phrase that makes me wonder. Most classical accounts I noticed on hetaerae just mentioned something like wit. From this to have them the finest philosophy debaters it's a long way and I fail to see what's the evidence on that. Maybe you or Richard Carrier can back on this one.

"As in the Symposium of Plato and Xenophon, where the drinking party is the setting for philosophical discussion, so Athenaeus (fl. AD 200) uses the framework of the symposium for literary and antiquarian exposition. In Book XIII of the Deipnosophists (Sophists at Dinner), he relates the collected witty sayings (chreia) of famous hetairai and anecdotes about them." (Greek Courtesans)

"In ancient Greek society, hetairai had a status and role distinct among women. The orator Demosthenes spoke of the three classes of women known to his culture when he said that Greek men keep wives for legitimate children, female slaves for the chores of the household, and hetairai "for the sake of pleasure." The pleasure expected of a hetaira was not only the stimulation of intellectual camaraderie, though; a hetaira also offered sexual favors. Thus, a hetaira was an intellectual "call girl"; she differed from a prostitute in ancient Greece in status and in what was expected of her: a hetaira offered intellectual intercourse before the other kind. In ancient Greece, the way you knew if a woman was a hetaira was if she spoke openly with men in public." (A Tale of Two Cultures)

They sound a lot like geishas to me.

Lafcadio · 11-01-2005, 09:22 AM

Indeed. Still Carrier said "who could debate the fine points of poetry and philosophy as well as any man". Your accounts mention "witty sayings" and "intellectual intercourse" and "spoke openly with men". None of that makes them potential philosophers as the initial quote may insinuate.

yalla · 11-01-2005, 05:59 PM

Lafcadio "I guess those apeducts[aqueducts] had a role and were not purely decorative"

Yeah but what else have the Romans done for us?

Sorry about that, back to your programme.

hinduwoman · 11-02-2005, 06:32 PM

When Christianity became the state religion, how did it affect women's property rights? That alone is a big pointer about whether women's status improved or degraded.

Toto · 11-02-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hinduwoman

When Christianity became the state religion, how did it affect women's property rights? That alone is a big pointer about whether women's status improved or degraded.

According to Paul Tobin

Quote:

Once Christianity came into ascendency women began to lose whatever freedom and influence they had during the pagan period of the Roman Empire. All traces of intellectual and personal independence were slowly eroded away. Thus, in the Synod of Elvira, around the year 306, it was stipulated that women could no longer write nor receive letters in their own name. Then around 345, the Council of Gangra declared that women are not allowed to have their hair cut. [3]

The property rights of women were also taken away. Within the first few centuries of the conversion of Rome, women could no longer inherit their father's wealth. [4] Women were deprived of this right well into the nineteenth century. Thus in mid-nineteenth century Boston, women still could not hold any property earned or inherited. The condition was the same in England. Apart from not being able to own any property in her own right, a married Englishwoman's earnings legally belonged to her husband. The laws in both these places were not abolished until the end of the nineteenth century. [5]

Tobin's view of women's rights in the ancient world sounds unduly rosy, and I suspect that the erosion of women's property rights had other causes. I think that there was more continuity between Christianity and paganism than a sharp change in policy.

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11-01-2005, 08:55 AM	#45
Lafcadio Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Romania Posts: 453	AFAIK the life expectancy in Classical age was significantly higher than the one of the not-yet-historic European cultures and I guess those apeducts had a role and were not purely decorative

11-01-2005, 09:22 AM	#47
Lafcadio Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Romania Posts: 453	Indeed. Still Carrier said "who could debate the fine points of poetry and philosophy as well as any man". Your accounts mention "witty sayings" and "intellectual intercourse" and "spoke openly with men". None of that makes them potential philosophers as the initial quote may insinuate.

11-01-2005, 05:59 PM	#48
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Lafcadio "I guess those apeducts[aqueducts] had a role and were not purely decorative" Yeah but what else have the Romans done for us? Sorry about that, back to your programme.

11-02-2005, 06:32 PM	#49
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	When Christianity became the state religion, how did it affect women's property rights? That alone is a big pointer about whether women's status improved or degraded.

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