Freethought & Rationalism Archive

richard2 · 09-07-2005, 09:15 AM

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In The Power of Myth , Joseph Campbell describes a Persian idea of Satan that I'd certainly never heard when I was a Christian. In this story, Satan loved God more than any other angel. Then God makes man and orders the angels to serve his new creation. Satan couldn't bring himself to do it. He could only serve God. His devotion was that strong. So that's why Satan was cast out. He wouldn't serve man. And Satan's eternal torment is that he is separated from the one he loves.

Poor little guy! That's actually a really sad story. :crying:

hehe

MrDarwin · 09-07-2005, 09:19 AM

Why an omniscient deity would create a creature that he/she/it knew full well would go ahead and make such a mess of his/her/its entire creation (and in just a matter of days, if we are to believe the YECs) is something that Christians have never quite been able to explain to me. Why that deity would then punish humans for the mess his/her/its own creation made (and on top of that, allowing Satan to roam freely after wreaking such havoc) makes even less sense.

Anybody? Anybody?

gee · 09-07-2005, 09:27 AM

Pharoah;
This is a huge issue. Let's start small.

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Are they influencing our thoughts and actions?

Job's implication is no.
Satan is our accuser before God but can't make us do anything.

gee

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR · 09-07-2005, 09:41 AM

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Originally Posted by MrDarwin

Why an omniscient deity would create a creature that he/she/it knew full well would go ahead and make such a mess of his/her/its entire creation (and in just a matter of days, if we are to believe the YECs) is something that Christians have never quite been able to explain to me. Why that deity would then punish humans for the mess his/her/its own creation made (and on top of that, allowing Satan to roam freely after wreaking such havoc) makes even less sense.

Anybody? Anybody?

You'd understand if you studied split personalities, not the Bible...

God and Satan are one in the same. Everybody has a little bit of what could be considered split personality, at least most people I've met, and this isn't meant to offend anybody.

God,or Satan, :huh: is just the ultimate when it comes to this.

pharoah · 09-07-2005, 09:51 AM

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Originally Posted by jemand

My take on it is that Lucifer was the most glorious of all the created beings, but chose to let that get to his head. He decided he was as important as God and ought to be able to enter the coucil of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When God didn't let him do that, after all, only God could talk about God-stuff, Lucifer got angry and rebelled. He deceived a bunch of angels and they folowed him instead of God, then when he lost the war in heaven, he was named Satan instead of Lucifer.

These fallen beings tempt humans now, but have no power to force them to give in to the temptation. However, in the Judgement day, Satan will be forced to pay the penalty for all the sins people commited but wouldn't have commited without his temptations. Satan will burn in Hell the longest of all, after all the other beings in hell have died. (hell isn't eternal-- only the results, non-existance of the wicked, are eternal).

That's my take on it.

On what grounds do you connect Lucifer to Satan, or posit Lucifer as a fallen angel. I've seen the reference in Isiah 14. Its subect matter appears to be Babylon and its king.

pharoah · 09-07-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gee

Pharoah;
This is a huge issue. Let's start small.

Job's implication is no.
Satan is our accuser before God but can't make us do anything.

gee

So is he influencing all of our evil thoughts and none of our actions?
or
Influencing some of our evil thoughts and none of our actions?
or
Influencing neither thoughts or actions but merely accusing us before God?

gee · 09-07-2005, 10:09 AM

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So is he influencing all of our evil thoughts and none of our actions?

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Influencing some of our evil thoughts and none of our actions?

I have no idea when he's actively involved in influencing anything.

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.......but merely accusing us before God?

This is what I think of most when I think of Satan. Coming from Job.

gee

jemand · 09-07-2005, 10:44 AM

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Originally Posted by pharoah

On what grounds do you connect Lucifer to Satan, or posit Lucifer as a fallen angel. I've seen the reference in Isiah 14. Its subect matter appears to be Babylon and its king.

yeah, it refers to the king of Babylon, but it could be said that the king of Babylon was influenced and took his orders from Satan/Lucifer (that sure would be the take Isaiah had on it... considering what that king did to Israel.). Babylon also becomes a symbol of evil in the Bible, by king of Babylon it is referring not only to the mortal king of literal Babylon but the inventor of evil himself-Satan. It's got somewhat of a dual meaning.

jemand · 09-07-2005, 10:45 AM

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Originally Posted by DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

I'm stuck on the question of free will pharoah, to many choices...
Every time I think I've got the answer, five more choices buzz around.

Like when you kill a fly, and five more show up for the funeral...

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

I don't agree with you much, but you sure are funny!

Joan of Bark · 09-07-2005, 10:58 AM

I see Satan as humankind's friend, kind of like Prometheus. After God made us, he became angry with our independant thinking and decided to destroy us (hence the origin of natural disasters and diseases). Satan admired humanity's determination to be free and encouraged our ancestors to rebel against the cruel God who hated beings that would not worship Him. For his traitorious ways, God cast him out of heaven and spread viscious slanders about him among humans.

Of course, I don't believe a word of this; it's just a myth I created to annoy Christians who aggressively propogate their own myths.

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09-07-2005, 09:19 AM	#12
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Why an omniscient deity would create a creature that he/she/it knew full well would go ahead and make such a mess of his/her/its entire creation (and in just a matter of days, if we are to believe the YECs) is something that Christians have never quite been able to explain to me. Why that deity would then punish humans for the mess his/her/its own creation made (and on top of that, allowing Satan to roam freely after wreaking such havoc) makes even less sense. Anybody? Anybody?

09-07-2005, 10:58 AM	#20
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I see Satan as humankind's friend, kind of like Prometheus. After God made us, he became angry with our independant thinking and decided to destroy us (hence the origin of natural disasters and diseases). Satan admired humanity's determination to be free and encouraged our ancestors to rebel against the cruel God who hated beings that would not worship Him. For his traitorious ways, God cast him out of heaven and spread viscious slanders about him among humans. Of course, I don't believe a word of this; it's just a myth I created to annoy Christians who aggressively propogate their own myths.

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