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08-19-2005, 04:23 AM | #11 |
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Let's now take a look at the sequence in Acts 20. Here's the New American Bible again:
Pretty standard. The protagonist moves around, is plotted against, and goes on his merry way.
It is clearly absurd to imagine that the narrator could not keep track of who was where, and then provide them with the proper perspective.
As Dennis MacDonald has noted, this tale is taken from elsewhere in Greek fiction, created by paralleling. Eutychus is Elpenor from the Odyssey. In other words, once again our "historical" passage is actually a big fat piece of fiction sitting in the center of it, and this time in another conventional style -- the writer has created it by paralleling the Odyssey, a conventional mode of fiction-creation in antiquity.
Paul makes his farewell speech. Note that the speech is composed of conventions: (1) as the hero approaches death, he is more sensitive to the future (2) the hero is visited by the divine, who let him know his fate (3) the hero goes to his fate willingly. Etc. The fictionality of the scene is evident in Paul's admonition that they have "been appointed overseers" a reference to a later Church structure which is more formalized, and of course, reinforced with the hint of the parallel to Mark 13, where Jesus foretells a future of a Church divided and ravaged by false christs. Turning to Acts 21:1-18:
Once again, a prosaic voyage, common in antiquity, followed by (yet another) visitation from the divine with warnings about the future. Luke's storytelling has a relatively simple pattern...
One's followers turning out en masse to see one off is a staple of Greek fiction. Compare Habrocomes' leaving from Ephesus:
and when Habrocomes and Anthia leave Rhodes, the narrator laconically says:
and from Chaereas and Callirhoe
Once again, our "historical" passage turns out to contain a convention of Greek fiction.
Now we're back to another staple scene: the traveler enters the city and an oracle predicts his future. Note that this is about the umpteenth time this occurs in Luke: duh! Repetitive sequences (need I even say it?) are of course, staples of Greek fiction. Luke has basically one Bauhaus style for his whole story....
Note the literary doublet here -- Paul goes from four virgins to four men who have made a vow. Hmmm....I'm sure this must be history...I mean...the narrator uses "we".....
Note again the conventional scene in Greek fiction -- the umpteenth time in Acts too -- the traveler is falsely accused, arrested, and brought before the authorities.
Note the fictional conventions -- the "whole city' came there to see them, and everyone was in a turmoil. Another fictional scene -- Paul is dragged in chains to the centurion.... On to Acts 27....by now I hope the readers will be sensitized enough to detect the usual conventions of Greek fiction -- Paul is warned in a dream, there is a shipwreck, the route is sketched out to allow sufficient realism to pervade the story, etc. Fiction, folks. |
08-19-2005, 08:44 AM | #12 | ||||
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T.W. Mansen once suggested that Romans 16 was a covering letter to enable Romans to be also sent to Ephesus (see above citation, pp. 3–15). It's a good guess, given the complexity of the manuscript tradition. While such a long list of personal greetings is odd, it only alerts us at first to seek why, not jump to the conclusion that it may be intended for a locale other than Rome. The easiest explanation is as follows: In those churches where Paul does personally know the people he is writing to (Corinthians, Galatians, Phillipians, and yes, Thessalonians), he does not mention names — only general greetings to the church, without specification. Colossians may be an exception (4:15, 17), but notably he didn't start that church or visit it. Why, then, the long list? Because you can't mention every body! This of course doesn't wholly explain the long list, but it does help. Paul's acquaintances at Rome could have easily informed him about the people he mentions too. Consider that the people he does mention are heads of household churches in Rome and that mentioning all the ones he knew of would have been a wise move if he planned on coming there (so as to not appear to be favoring one group over another). Now, isn't this far less convoluted that van Manem? But as has been already decided, long before this post existed, the epistle to the Romans does not show that Paul was ever in Rome. That person in the 'other thread', if he or she did indeed suggest that it did, is wrong. CJD |
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08-19-2005, 09:12 AM | #13 |
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Wonderful discussion!
I note Ellegard was mentioned. If we ignore the orthodox dating and assumptions, what are the earliest and latest dates for the writing of Romans? Could it be written by Marcion? |
08-19-2005, 09:22 AM | #14 |
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Technically, Romans is evidence only of Paul's intention to travel to Rome. The idea that that Rom 16 was really a cover letter to Ephesus does not really affect the significance of Rom 15:24, where the intention was set down.
If all we had were Paul's undisputed letters (i.e., if we put Acts, 2 Timothy, and Church tradition to the side), then we would observe that Paul's travel plans were often frustrated and that it was an open question whether Paul's intention was actually fulfilled. In fact, we can fairly confidently conclude that some aspects of Paul's intention to visit Rome were not fulfilled, if we put the "we" of Acts back on the table. For example, in Romans 15:24, Paul was contemplating a visit to Rome as a free man. Paul's "visit" to Rome did not happen that way according to Acts. (Putting 2 Tim back on the table may not do the trick, however, because it is possible, through a rather forced interpretation of 1:16-18, to accept the authenticity of 2 Tim yet locate its composition during Paul's imprisonment in Caesarea, before he reached Rome. This is one of the notable suggestions of J. A. T. Robinson.) Stephen |
08-19-2005, 11:28 AM | #15 | ||
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Indeed, nothing ever seems to go the way we intend. Just to reiterate Kirby's previous point about Clement: In his letter to the Corinthians (3:11–14), he alludes to Paul's venturing out west (note that Clement purportedly wrote from Rome):
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In the end, it is not until the mid-200s that we find solid evidence for the places where Christianity was practiced in Spain (we must not overlook Irenaeus' [Liber contra hoereses, Book 1.10.2] and Tertullian's [Liber adversas Judaeos, chap. 7] references to Christian churches in Spain, however). CJD |
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08-19-2005, 12:34 PM | #16 | ||||||
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But this is not dispositive. Quote:
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How do you get an intention to make Rome his base of operations out of the epistle? Quote:
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Who were Paul's acquantances at Rome? Why does he refer so casually to people that he does not know personally? How did Prisca and Aquila get from their house church in Ephesus to Rome so quickly? Who was minding the store in Ephesus? Did Paul really write Colossians in any case? Quote:
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08-19-2005, 01:38 PM | #17 | ||||||||
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Did Paul write Colossians? Well, someone "pauline" did if not him personally. My use of it only regarded the mentioning of names therein, which incidentally were folks (if Paul had written it) he did not know personally — just like the majority of those mentioned in Romans 16. |
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08-19-2005, 04:00 PM | #18 |
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I thought travel around the Roman Empire was easy! Caesar popped into Spain, bashed a few heads and returned very quickly for example, shipping was well developed and there was a complete set of Roman roads!
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08-19-2005, 04:14 PM | #19 |
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The real problem for Paul would have been language. He preached in Koine Greek (presumably) to Greek speaking subjects of the eastern Roman Empire, or perhaps Aramaic. He would have had problems in Spain, in being understood and gaining support.
If you think that Acts has any relation to history, Paul operated by going to synagogues and preaching to Diaspora Jews. He would not be able to do that in Spain. |
08-20-2005, 03:26 PM | #20 |
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I commented about Ellegard, who writes that Paul may have been visiting and writing to well established organisations, that may have been in existence for up to one hundred years before Paul. The various hymns found in Paul's writing, I see especially as evidence of an established organisation. What criticism has there been of Ellegard's views on this point and therefore on the question of Paul going to Rome?
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