Lucretius

Deadman has already posted about the Burmese thing that Faber used and I have already posted the relevant part of Horaces Odes, I will highlight the relevant part this time

That is the entire part on which Faber seems have relied on
ONE LINE in ONE POEM ,note not a scientific work or a study on longevity ONE LINE that refers to a Greek myth about Prometheus giving fire to mankind ,hardly the sort of thing to rely on in my opinion.

Ironically the start of the use of fire by mankind would probably have INCREASED their life expectancy less chance of freezing to death, less chance of hyphothermia etc etc .

http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...race_odes1.htm

Dave Hawkins

I am not "relying" on it. It is one small piece of the puzzle. I don't think we are getting the complete picture from the English translation you quoted. Note the following ...

1) I didn't give the whole quote about Horace from Faber, but I will now with the relevant quote and Faber's footnote ... Can anyone translate this? Why does Faber say this is remarkable?

2) Note what Wikipedia has to say about the Myth of Iapetus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus_(mythology)
Note that Iapetus is often equated with the Biblical Japheth. Is this justified? Sounds reasonable and worthy of investigation.

3) Note also Wikipedia's entry on the legendary Titans and how this legend parallels the Biblical account of an ancient time when patriarchs lived long lives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28mythology%29

Remember that Faber's thesis is that ancient myths from various people groups have enough striking parallels as to lead one to believe that there must be elements of truth behind the myths. After reading much of his 1500 page 3 volume tome, I find much of his thesis convincing.

gregor

Great post Mr. Faber,

but I had to chuckle at the unintended comment. . .

I'd like to occasionally see this punishment meted out.

The Evil One

Exaclty which Biblical patriarch castrated his father and ate his own children?

I mean, really. Once you've said "an ancient time when people lived long lives" you really have pretty much covered all the parallels between the Hebrew patriarchs and the Titans.

And as I've said before, finding myths about how things were better in the old days is hardly evidence fo ranything beyond the fact that human beings tend to think that things were better in the old days.

As for Iapetus and Japheth. While the similarity of names is striking, one would expect occasional similar names to turn up by chance alone. If there were Greek parallels to Shem and Ham, playing roughly similar roles relative to Iapetus, that would be more worthy of consideration. Even if there is a connection way back when (which gets less and less likely the further back you go), it would appear to have been obscured by alterations to the mythologies.

deadman_932

1. The footnote is the original latin that IS translated.

2. Iapetus is "traditionally" associated with Japeth by WHO? The wikipedia cite only mentions Josephus. If later Christians merely follow this, then what support does that give you?

3.Where on Earth do you see that Wikipedia page on Titans paralleling a BIBLICAL account of an ancient time when patriarchs lived long lives?

Is that last part what you mean? If so, you're way confused about WHO your patriarch is, Jack.

JEST2ASK

(The descendants of Cain) Genesis 4 : 17 And Cain knew his wife and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city and called the name of the city afterthe name of his son Enoch ... (20) And Adah (the wife of Lamech) bore Jabal he was the father f all those who dewell in tents and have livestock (21) His brothers name was Jubal, He was the Father of all those who play the harp and flute. (22) And as for Zillah (Lamech's other wife) she also bore Tubal-Cain, an instructor of every craftsmen in bronze and iron ....

I would like to know how this is reconcilled with Adams's later son Seth being the distant ancestor of Noah who became the father of all post flood humans. It could be argued that Noah's wife was from Cain's linage but that would be IMO speculation beyond the scope of the biblical text.

I am of the opinion that Chapter's 1 -4 are from seprate mythology (oral traditions etc) than the story of Noah Chapters 5 - 10. I note that chapter 10deals with only a very limited range of nations.


I would also like to know why in Chapter 5 only the age of the father when the first male is born is mentioned. Why is there never a mention of example and Adam the first man died when Lamech the son of Methusalah was 56 years old. Again in the realm of pure speculation from silence of the text but I find it interesting; and it gives credance to my belief that the story was never intended as (literal) history.

To borrow from afdave:
So come on, all you literalists (creationist - fundlementalist etc etc)! Open your minds up and set your imaginations free. Don't say "No, no, no ... we can't, we can't, we can't." Start thinking and saying "Imagine if ... Could it be? ... I wonder if ... What if ..." and so on. How much more you could learn.

Who knows what wonders we might discover!

Lucretius

The first point I would make is that Faber appears to have MISTRANSLATED (either through ignorance or design )"audax Iapeti genus" he (and you )seems to have believed that this means "since the time of Iapetus " when it actually means the "the daring Son of Iapetus " i.e Prometheus and if he (and you )were to accept that this is a paralell myth to a Biblical myth ,then where precisely is the Biblical counterpart to Prometheus stealing fire from the Gods?
As far as the translation you wanted it was in fact the part of Connington's translation I highlighted previously however here is my admittedly rough & ready version

I have to say that I have linked necessitas with Leti as the "force of death" or the "necessity of death" rather than Connington's meaning of it as Fate personified but thats just my
interpretation
Are you seriously suggesting that on the basis of the similarity of the names Iapetus & Japeth that the mythology of the Greeks and the Hebrews are identical ?
Or is it the case that both drew their mythology from an older source ?
Or just perhaps it is coincidence ?

ericmurphy

And still, not the tiniest scrap of empirical evidence for extended lifespans of ancient humans from Dave. Imagine my astonishment.

In the meantime, how are you doing with a search for a quote from me where I say environment and genetics have no effect on lifespan, Dave? Or are you going to retract your claim that that's my position?

Occam's Aftershave

Maybe all the females died before reaching sexual maturity*


(*Baboon dog inside joke)

Dave Hawkins

Lucretius ... Thanks for your post. Very helpful. I am suggesting that both drew from a more ancient source. This is known as the Wiseman/Harrison Hypothesis, or the Tablet Theory of Genesis. I reviewed Wiseman's book HERE. Other scholars have picked up this theory and have developed it, for example, Dale DeWitt in The Generations of Genesis (1976), Curt Sewell at TrueOrigin.org and Duane Garrett in Rethinking Genesis (1991). My opinion is that the Genesis account is the accurate one and the others are corruptions. But of course I am open to challenges of this opinion.