Steven Avery

> Steven Carr
> pages 124-125 of The Jesus Paprys by Ancona .... the Nero Papyrus is
> described as virtually a twin of the Matthew one (Presumably it also comes
> from a Codex... Thiede would not have blurred such a point)

Well, I don't have The Jesus Papyrus by Carsten Thiede and Matthew d'Ancona, although I do have another Theide book, "The Quest for the True Cross" :-)

While the Peter Head, J.K. Elliot and Sigrid Peterson articles on the web give strong arguments against Thiede, this claim from Diogenes does not seem to be supportable.

As a preliminary note, the real criticism in this regard is from Peterson, because the Matthew papyri is from a "two-column codex", although even there Peterson carefully does not give that format as any sort of conclusive evidence against Thiede.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~petersig/thiede2.txt
Media Papyri: Examining Carsten Thiede's Rediscovered Fragments
by Sigrid Peterson, PhD

Overall, there is indication of first century codex usage, even to first century book publication !

http://www.answers.com/topic/codex
Although the Romans used the codex and similar precursors made of wood for taking notes and other informal writings, the first recorded use of the codex for literary works dates from the late first century, when Martial experimented with the format.

Prax
Apparently the Martial epigram demonstrates that the Romans were using codexes in the first century, even in commercial books.

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/cr...statistic.html
Papyrus as writing material: the rise of the codex
The following epigram by Martial (about 100 AD) relates to the books of Martial which are obviously in codex form. The epigram gives the impression that this was still not very common. ..... You who are keen to have my books with you everywhere and want to have them as companions for a long journey, buy these ones which parchment confines within small leaves, provide cylinders for great authors: one hand can hold me so that you may not fail to know where I am for sale, and wonder aimless throughout the whole city, with me as your guide you will be certain: look for Secundus, the freedman of learned Lucensis behind the threshold of the temple of peace and the forum palladium.

NOTE:
Apparently there was a form that was neither technically scroll or codex.

http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~snlrc/encyclop...rollcodex.html
Wooden leaf tablets of birch or alder saplings also were used for writing. So thin that they could be stitched together and even folded, a cache of these wooden slips, written with ink, has been found at the Roman outpost of Vindolanda in Britain, near where Hadrian's Wall later would be built.
... (Prax: next the discussion of the 1st century parchment notebook)
Stitched together and protected by a cover, the parchment notebook was used for accounts, notes, drafts, and letters. The earliest evidence for its literary use is the poet Martial, who, writing toward the end of the first century AD, commends the new form to an unaccustomed public: "Assign your book-boxes to the great, this copy of me one hand can grasp." Because of its resemblance to a block of wood, the tablet came to be called a codex.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/026290.html
G. D. Kilpatrick .. expressed in 1971 in connection with the publication of P Fouad 266 by F. Dunand. Kilpatrick mentioned the period between 70 and 135 C.E. and pointed to three important changes that occurred in this period, 1) the change from scroll to codex ....

Robert Kraft writes on these topics, including..
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/jewishpap.html
Greek Scribal Culture in Early Jewish and Early Christian Settings: Continuities and Discontinuities
Scroll to Codex (format) --
What is the earliest example of a Jewish scriptural codex?
Are there examples of early Christian scriptural scrolls?
..... It is clear that Christians came to prefer this new format very early, almost from as early as we can see anyone using it. But could they have arrived at this situation by imitating Jewish techniques? That is certainly not impossible, given the highly ambiguous state of the evidence and the Jewish origins of early Christianity.
Bibliography
Skeat = C.H.Roberts and T.C.Skeat, The Birth of the Codex (Oxford University Press 1983, 1987)

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/oth...stianity/Canon
DRAFT: "The Codex and Canon Consciousness" by Robert A. Kraft
For the emerging "Christian" movements in the first century..... The "codex" format was far from unknown, especially for more immediate purposes (e.g. note taking, rough drafts, record keeping), and also in some literary (and book
publishing) experimentation mentioned by Martial in Rome in the late first century CE.... 5. A fragment of a Latin parchment codex of an otherwise
unknown historical text dating to about 100 CE was also found at
Oxyrhynchus (POx 30; see Roberts & Skeat 28) ... note that Skeat, who is responsible for the revisions of Roberts' earlier work, subsequently favored the
theory that the Christian papyrus codex, along with the nomina sacra codings, emanated from Jewish-Christian influences by way of Jerusalem and/or Syrian Antioch (perhaps to record Jesus' "oral law" as a sort of proto-gospel): Birth 57-61 -

Extenstive Bibliography is given by Robert Kraft

Other articles from Robert Kraft include..
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/cultures.bib.html
Cultures of the Book: Bibliography
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...22&btnG=Search
The 'Textual Mechanics' of Early Jewish LXX/OG Papyri and Fragments
By Robert A. Kraft (University of Pennsylvania)

Here is an argument that the codex format may go way back :-)

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg.../an15-407.html
Wooden Writing Tablets and the Birth of the Codex* by J.A. Szirmai
....rarely did the sewing system of early codices survive ... Yet there is some evidence that the complex codex structure may have existed earlier than generally assumed in the framework of the writing tablet story. The evidence is cut in stone, on the steles from Neo-Hittite Empire, dating from the 8th or 7th century B.C. ... The possibility that we are dealing here with an early evidence of an advanced codex construction, put forward by Van Regemorter, should at least be considered;... The study of ancient bookbinding structures has long been neglected in the field of codicology,

In this article from Steven Carr's site J.K. Elliot takes Thiede to task, but not on this "only 2nd century for codex" basis, in fact he mentions the tendency to late date based on an improper conception of when codexes were used.

http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/thiede.htm
The Jesus Papyrus - Five Years On - Professor J.K.Elliott, Univ of Leeds
There was a tendency earlier this century to date Christian papyri too late, partly because it was not realised that Christian biblical papyri written in book (codex), as opposed to scroll, format - as nearly all of them are - began as early as has subsequently been proved to be the case. Thus several previously established late datings for these Biblical codices have had to be revised in favour of an earlier date

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Steven Carr

Although the Nero papyrus is called almost a twin by D'Ancona, there doesn't seem to be a picture of it to overwhelm sceptics with the closeness of the handwriting.

I wonder why Thiede missed such an obvious way to demonstrate the truth of his claim....

I recognise that web site.......

What else did Professor Elliott say about Thiede's work in the article I commisioned from him?

Vorkosigan

Hey Prax...do you realize whose website you just linked to?

:rolling:

Steven Avery

Most assuredly, it might help you if you actually read my post carefully before doing eye exercises, although the Bates exercises may in fact help your vision.

From my earlier post.... ** added

In response to Steven's question, I am well aware of the views of Elliot, Head and Peterson, and compliment them here, and above, for making many salient points. I have never defended Thiede's first century dating (although I don't know enought to state a definitive rejection) I was simply pointing out that the idea that codexes were not in use to the 2nd century, as stated by Diogenes, is a fallacious argument. And it does not seem to be the cornerstone of any of the scholastic critics, as far as I have seen.

As for Steven's question -
I really even have the exact claim from Thiede vis a vis the Nero Papyrus. Steven's implication that it may not support Thiede's claims, so Theide omitted it, is understandable, but outside the material available to me. Without the details of Theide's Nero papyrus claims, and then preferably tracking down the Nero payprus to see if they match what Thiede says, I really cannot say much one way or another.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Steven Carr

You mean somebody makes a wild claim, that even Thiede's ghost-written book does not provide evidence for, and we should be agnostic about whether it is true or not?

Can I start making wild claims and challenge people to track down papyrii to see if I am right or not?

Steven Avery

Actually, I was wondering if you had in fact looked up the Nero payprus info, and if you would share what you had found, since you seem to be the expert on this topic.

Overall, you are more than welcome to attack the late Carsten Thiede on this, or any aspect of his early datings.

My observation with you, Steven, is that you are not forthcoming to the forum, as in my repeated simple question to you as to your view of the dating of John. So I don't really trust that you are fully forthcoming on this question of the Nero papyrus, and I definitely will not condemn somebody on a point of which I know little factual background, based on your insinuations.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Steven Carr

What do you mean 'thanks'?

You would only insult people who kindly tell you where to look to find Theide's claim. (It is in the book 'The Jesus Papyrus')

Seeker2000

Yes, I'd also be interested in that - actually that was my question in the first posting.

As for the evaluation of new claims: although I don't think Thiede's ideas have much merit, he at least tried to back them up with facts and believed in them, I think. If you just make something up off the top of your head, Steven, that would be a different situation.

Diogenes the Cynic

After a lot of searching, I can't find anything that identifies the script of the Nero papyrus. Even Thiede doesn't do it as far as I can tell, his book with d'Acona calls it a "twin" without elaboration or illustration and I can't find a single other source which confrms that. After being told that double columned codexes did not appear until the middle of the 2nd century, this Sungenis fellow in the OP sneers, "Oh really? Since when does a business transaction purporting to be from the time of Nero become written up only 150 years after Nero died?"

But no one has said that the Nero papyrus was from a double columned codex, or from a codex at all or that it was written in a majuscule script. If Thiede is unwilling to provide details as to what makes the Nero papyrus a "twin" of the Matthean fragments then I don't see that we have any basis to conclude that Thiede has proven anything with this comparison.

Does anybody know anything more about the Nero papyrus....the script in particular?

Steven Avery

The thanks is for the thread in general, and for those who are in fact forthcoming in inquiry and sharing information. Since you went out of your way to impugn Thiede's integrity on one claim from the book, you could have copied a sentence or two from the book before chiding folks on not agreeing with your accusatory tone... you have not... nor have you indicated whether you have any additional information about the Nero papyrus from your own reseach.

Steven, I remember the style of your dialog from TWeb, and now here when you refuse to answer a simple question on your views on John, (not even the courtesy to say "I do not want to answer that question") so I don't take any accusation from you at face. Despite your obvious erudition and scholarship, at least on some issues, you have simply not shown yourself to be trustworthy in the realm of fairness and accusation and forthcomingness. Hopefully, that strong perception I have received is more an aberration than your actual nature, and I will be able to say something different in the future.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/