stp2007

I've added your link to my ever growing pile of things to read if I ever get the time. I'm not sure if you are proposing the idea of a global Christian conspiracy to keep the population in their place, dumb them down, etc. but I've heard the same before and the date seems to match. Frankly I'm going to have to pass on that discussion. As an atheist I'll leave that conspiracy up to the believers. As a realist there are much better conspiracies to discuss if I had the time and interest.

As for how it could be accepted as a form of authority I suggest you read The Authoritarians. Admittedly I haven't read it yet. It is still on my reading pile. However when it was recommended to me it sounded like it had the answer to why people seek out authority figures. If you read it let me know. My guess is humans are genetically wired to follow because we are a social animal.

Nuff said on this as the moderator has said we are getting off topic.

Speaking of which, I'd like the bible to say if the rapture is literal or not. It will help my future planning.

Clouseau

But of no immediate concern to those seeking same-sex partnerships in Quebec and even in Canada, with no overt religious sanction. Now what about the global aspect? What are the chances of getting same-sex partnerships in very non-Bible bashing places such as Russia, Portugal, Poland, Greece, Romania, Morocco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, India, China, Chile, Mexico? Are you being just a touch selective in this matter? Are not Protestant countries like Canada, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden actually more democratic, fair-minded and liberal than most, with the egregious exception of the medieval USA?

I covered Gish. He and all the AiG buffoons are known, infamous, proven 'liars for Christ'.

I really don't see much connexion. If and when these things impinge on people's money they will instantly lose such fantasies as YECism.

Good, because it has nothing to do with literalism/allegory in the Bible.

The sexual issue is not necessarily to do with rationality, and the AIDS issue is centred on Roman Catholicism, which is a much more ancient and entrenched irrationality than fundies in Alabammy. And as I say, I don't think that people actually believe YEC unless they are of pretty low educational standards. Even a reasonably bright 12-yr-old can see through Gish, Ham and co.

mountainman

Thanks for the reference to this interesting article
about Authoritarians and Authoritarian Followers.

stp2007

The discussion in Canada was to make it illegal for same-sex marriages. To fix the definition of marriage so it could not pertain to same-sex couples. This was initiated and backed by religious conservatives. This affected same-sex couples because it further stigmatized them in society and more importantly would end up denying them benefits that straight couples get in a married relationship. So it was of immediate concern of same-sex couples.

I don't want to get off topic here and I've already admitted it may not have been the best example wrt literalism/allegory in the Bible. If your goal by focusing on this issue is to convince me that there are zero elements in the bible that are taken literally when they are obviously a metaphor I just want to say flood, genesis and noah's ark.

Agreed. Just pointing out that he exists and therefore that YEC's actually exist.

They were lined up around the block when the creationist museum opened up last month in Kentucky. At $20 a head it seemed cheap enough to keep those fantasies. Plus the museum cost $27 million dollars. Some fundy funded that.

Then its good that I didn't bring it up or mention it at all.

I don't think things are that simple. For one thing YEC "in-danger" 12-yr-olds have YEC parents teaching them that crap. Secondly, have you gone to any YEC or fundy forums lately? If not I suggest you do and read their terms of service. Try rapture ready or Teens-4-Christ. Very strict in what you can say and viewpoint you can take. Even sometimes to moderating or preventing links off site. In this day and age it should be easy for anyone to find the information they need. Some people are doing their best to prevent that. Read the wedge document which is the Discovery Institute's strategy to promote 'Intelligent Design'.

Finally three things. If 2/3rs of the American public polled believe in creationism then statistically a big chunk of them have to be fairly well educated. Secondly, Dawkins, I think (maybe it was Sam Harris) mentioned in one of his books a PhD (biology?) professor who made the decision to become a YEC and discard his scientific beliefs because he couldn't reconcile his two beliefs. So he chose god over knowledge. His name escapes me. I'll try to find a reference. But it wasn't someone with poor/low education. Finally, check out afdave whom I mentioned previously. His signature will have a link to his website. He claims to be an electrical engineer and business owner. Seems pretty well educated but as irrational and YEC as you can get.

Clouseau

Two points: the issue of sexuality is not in the least affected by literalism; and Prot countries do not, on the whole, persecute on the basis of sexuality. Many countries persecute that are not Prot, or even religious, so this is more than a bit non sequitur.

Surely nincompoops like those do more damage to their cause than good. They might even be set up by atheists to discredit Christianity! I mean, take this:

'Teens-4-Christ is a King James Version Bible site.....please use King James Scripture when posting Scripture reference. failure to do so will result in the editing or deleting of your post. Your account may also be deleted or banned.'

I mean, they're serious. Aren't they?

Yes, I think so. Sieg Heil!

I.e., kindly remove brain at the door. Sorry, I just can't keep a straight face when reading that stuff. It shows what a sad, tragic, desperate, medieval country the USA is, though. USA, RIP.

ID has been discredited so much now that it cannot recover enough to have any serious impact. I agree, at one stage it looked as if it might gain official influence.

Yes, well, liars are as common as muck when it comes to religion. That's nothing new at all!

Let it! The guy is lying, making a total fool of himself. Just ignore these people. They really aren't worth the attention of the intelligent.

stp2007

Lets sum up.

We both seem to agree that YEC is a poor world view.

We have some difference of opinion regarding sexuality. But then again maybe not. We may just be participating in a different argument. I used anti gay-marriage as an admittedly possible poor example of literalism gone bad in the bible. You want to clarify that this is an issue persecuted by some flavours (my word) of religion (not Prots) and even some secular countries. I can't argue that statement although admittedly my Prots knowledge isn't up to date.

I think our biggest area of disagreement is how serious we consider YEC's, ID'ists and their ilk. I agree with you that their logic is faulty, they make fools of themselves and are woefully ignorant or deliberately so. I believe you think these examples of ignorance will prove their eventual undoing and so they can be ignored/dismissed. My concern (warning youTube video, NSFW language, not meant to be taken literally, or is it) is that we may not have time for that to happen considering all the other problems we have on our plate.

Clouseau

Usually translates to- 'Let me misrepresent'.

stp2007

And we were being so civil.

Feel free to point out where I misrepresented, otherwise I will have to believe in this case I did not. Truly not sure where you are coming from argumentatively wise.

Clouseau

As we should, and as is so rare. If you are genuinely sorry, go back to my last substantive post and address what I have actually written.

stp2007

Your last substantive post on this thread is #65 .
Correct me if I am wrong.

Starting from ...
I acknowledged and agreed with everything you said below that when I said "We both seem to agree that YEC is a poor world view."
Correct me if I am wrong.

I acknowledged and responded to everything else in your post (your quote above) when I said:
Note, I said I think we are discussing different things. I still think that.
Note, I said I can't argue your statement. I still can't. Nor do I really want to because we seem to be discussing different things.
Note, my acknowledgment (third time now - that should be enough) that anti gay-marriage may not have been the best example of literalism gone bad in the bible - which is kind of how this thread started in the first place.
I fail to see how any of this is mis-representing what you are saying.
I fail to see how I have not addressed what you have written.
Correct me if I am wrong.