Karalora

Clearly not, which is why it's so silly of archaeologists to do this.

Matrilocality is when the female side of the family has continuity of location from one generation to the next--i.e. a man leaves his family and moves in with his wife and her relatives rather than vice-versa (or both of them moving away and starting a new household, which is the current common pattern in the First World).

Matrifocality is when genealogical records stress the female line more than the male. Even the otherwise highly sexist Hellenic Greeks retained some of this in their language; the word for brother, adelphos, literally meant "from the same womb," implying that two men who had the same father but different mothers were not truly brothers.

Obviously, either of these practices will tend to accord women more power than the reverse, but it is a mistake to conflate either with out-and-out matriarchy.

Incitatus

By the way, what happened to "HeathenDawn"? In all the other Wiccan threads I looked at, she turns up and tells off non-pagan dissenters. How come we've not incurred his wrath?

Crucifiction

IMO, Wicca is sillier than Christianity. If a Wiccan doesn't realize that it was invented by Gerald Gardner, they're... well, silly. It's no different than Joseph Smith and Mormonism, L. Ron Hubbard with Scientology, or any other ham-handed cult that borrows bits and pieces from historical religions and shoves them together haphazardly.

Some of the followers are all right; but the religion has been taken over by crybaby wannabe-bisexual Goth chicks that try to attract attention to themselves. For every one authentic Wiccan, there's fifty of the "poseurs".

But what bugs me most are the people claiming it's Celtic. Pagan? Probably not. Neo-Pagan? Yeah. Celtic? HELL NO. It borrows from Celtic folklore; but it borrows just as much from ancient Roman polytheism and Christianity, with a hint of Buddhism thrown in for good measure.

If you REALLY want to follow a Celtic religion; then just become a Celtic Reconstructionist. It's far more simillar to the actual faith of the ancient Celtic tribes of England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Germany, and France than Wicca is.

http://home.comcast.net/~uberrod/text4.html

I don't have a problem with serious Wiccans that recognize their religion WAS invented, has little basis in true Celtic religion, and is very derivative of other faiths. {Yes, Satanism is derivative of Neitzche and Rand, but I recognize this and understand it; and incorporate that into my value system.}

However, fluffies are useless; and real Wiccans have no reason to try to argue against other religions, when theirs is just as manmade as any other; and derivative of some of the religions they disbelieve in.

Likewise, as I've said before, I find the Wiccan Reede hypocritical in the extreme. "Harm none"? How does one go about that? If you drink the last soda in the 'fridge, someone else isn't getting it. Buy a hamburger, and some cow had to die for that. Throw it away, and you've wasted a burger that someone else didn't have the chance to eat.

Incitatus

The problem with this particular religion certainly seems to be its members. The teenage girls are too numerous, the adults are slightly tragic. Reminds me of Celsus' claim that the Christians were interested in converting "only foolish and low individuals, and persons devoid of perception, and slaves, and women, and children."

I've been looking at a Wiccan forum and the way they use language is infuriating. I keep reading crap about "aspects of the divine" and her "consort." One girl is talking about being a "pantheistic presence" in a dream she had. A Wiccan could accuse me of being too dumb to take part in the conversation, but thats missing the point - Wiccans use language not to pass on information, but to enshroud it in mystery and sound intelligent.

And no one else in the world talks about Jung so much while understanding him so little.

Shven

Most, if not all Wiccans do realise this. Get with the picture. Most neo-pagan culture thieves who label themselves Wiccan with little understanding of its meaning dont, but thats another matter.

Go peddle your stereotypes elsewhere.

Since nobody on this threead was claiming that Wicca was celtic I'd appreciate it if you took your rant somewhere else. why not make a thread titled 'Wicca is not celtic' and see how many people disagree with you?

Preaching to the choir here (or should that be the anti-choir?) I LIKE recons. I think they're great. But then I dont recall anybody here who claimed to be interested in celtic religions.

So you dont have a problem with actual Wiccans then? why the chip on your shoulder?

Wiccans do no such thing. They may point out the negative effects of other religions and the problems they cause, in the same way that you are doing from your ivory tower of man-made religion right now, but they dont claim that other religions are any less 'true'. I suggest you find somebody to direct you to the clue dispensor.

I can see its impractical, but hypocritical? The word 'rede' means guideline, not law. And anyway, morality is an entirely personal thing. I could just as easily rant the 'fuck yoiu jack, I've got mine' morality of modern satanism, but this isn't the time or the place.

I recommend that you take your chip somewhere else. If it is still firmly attatched to your shoulder I suggest you go with it.

Shven

Crucifiction

Did I say I was addressing anybody in particular in this thread?

Nope.


Because, as we all know, Wiccans are ALL completely and totally dedicated to their religion; and every one of them has the highest amount of knowledge about it. Nope, there's no such thing as the hordes of wannabe's fresh out of Hot Topic.


Again- I wasn't addressing any particular individuals in this thread.


AGAIN- I wasn't addressing any particular individuals in this thread.


What "chip"? I'm simply pointing out that Wiccan's who come to this site and bash Christianity yet defend Wicca need to "remove the planks from their eyes", as it were.


Nope. I've never ever, ever seen a Wiccan on these boards argue against Christianity. :rolling:


Yes, hypocritical. How many Wiccans DO harm people, without even considering their 'reede'? In fact, there's hardly a thing you can do in life that DOESN'T harm something or someone. Hence, y'know, survival of the fittest.

Have fun; I don't consider it a divinely inspired law or something that must be followed to the utmost, so I don't particularly care what you do.

Because, as we all know, anyone that criticizes Wicca in any way, shape, or form has a chip on their shoulder against it.

So, Shven, why aren't you a Scientologist or Mormon? Each have just as much evidence supporting their factuality as Wicca; and both have far more adherents that will attest to the factuality of their cults.

newtype_alpha

At the risk of incurring a series of cynical chuckles, it could best be summed up that Wicca is still, at the present time, a sort of proto-religion that has not yet fully matured into a solid state spiritual path. It's still somewhat amorphous and experimental, very dynamic and rapidly evolving. New groups pop up every other month, gain popularity for a short time, then fizzle out and die. Others thrive and gain members, and as they grow their ideas begin to spread and proliferate better than other oddball ideas of "poseurs." It's an example of cultural evolution in action, and whatever form it eventually takes will depend entirely on what the serious adherents choose to contribute to it, or what they choose to accept/reject in the most general sense.

There are many Celtic reconstructionists. To my knowledge, few if any of them call themselves "Wiccan," and few Wiccans would care to argue the point. The thing is, there's sort of an unwritten rule (or maybe somebody wrote it down, I dont know) that it's best to use the pantheon of gods and spiritual ideas you are most familiar with or msot directly connected with your family lineage. Alot of Wiccans come from middle-class white families who aren't really sure what flavor of "white" they really are, so they just assume the Celtic angle by default. Personally I care very little for Celtic spirituality since (in addition to finding it painfully boring) I have at most 2% anglo-saxon heritage somewhere in my convoluted family tree.

As far as I know, the "Arguments" only come when one party makes some sweeping, unsubstantiated generalization and somebody takes offense to it. Some "real" Wiccans do take this too far, although many do so while guarding a small or large chip on their shoulder.

Assuming all Wiccans follow the rede, even the ones who do don't take it that literally. Some, like myself, try to refer to nature as a teacher of most if not all moral/spiritual lessons. Kill and eat when neccesary, do not kill more than you need. The rede itself is pretty much just a wordy way of laying the primary ground rule of Wicca: "Be considerate of others." That's not that hard to do, is it?

Shven

<sigh>
Did I say you were addressing anybody perticular in this thread? As I recall I was complaining abou tthe fact that you weren't addressing anybody in this thread.

Wicca: somebody initiated into Gardner's witchcraft based mystery tradition by an initiate of said tradition. Said initiates rarely if ever initiate wannabes fresh out of hot topic.

again, thats my point.

Why?

Well it is a religious and philosophical debate forum you know.

As I said - guideline. not law.



Most Wiccans dont think the rede is divinely inspired.

It just seemed apparent from the way you posted an unrelated rant about how wicca sucks so much in a thread that happened to be about Wicca. Whats the matter? would the bisexual goth chicks in high school not sleep with you?

Eh? firstly I'm not a Wiccan, secondly, since wicca is an initiatory tradition similar to that of the Golden Dawn your point is irrelevant and thirdly, since Wicca doesn't promote itself as the one true path your analogy is of no merit.

For the gods know how manieth time

I. Am. Not. Wiccan.

Reason I am not Wiccan:
I am not initiated as one.

Reasons I dont want to be initiated as one:
I dont want to follow the rede
I think the rule of 3 is bollocks
I'm far too arrogant to let a high priestess boss me about
There are no covens near me - at least none that I know about

the clue dispensor is that way

Shven

Ojuice5001

The Celts do occupy that position in history, don't they? They were quite ubiquitous in Europe at one point, and are significant for that reason.

My ideas about which gods influence the modern world lead me to believe in a non-revealed pantheon I call the post-Enlightenment gods. These gods, it's assumed, are associated with the social trends of modernity. And the theory predicts that these gods would be associated with France (because of France played a key role in the formation of the Enlightenment). When I realized this, I educated myself about who lived in pre-Christian France, and found that the Celts were one of the principal groups. So I briefly considered the idea that the Celtic gods and the post-Enlightenment gods are one and the same. But the post-Enlightenment gods can be described as non-revealed gods of modern culture, and the Celtic gods don't seem strongly reminiscent of modernity. So I decided against that theory; the post-Enlightenment gods are indeed associated with France, but are not the same gods that were worshipped in ancient France before Christianity*. They were no more reavealed then than they are now. They may well be friends with Celtic gods like Lugh, the god of craftsmanship.

*Although the French Revolutionaries did try to set up a religion of reason-worship. Reinforces the point that there is that kind of spiritual presence in France.

liquid

I know I'm jumping into this thread at a very very late stage, but I've got one comment on the subject of this thread....

I'd like to see them try!