JoeWallack

JW:
My criteria here "Personal nature of evidence" =

Information which refers to Jesus.

Condition = Must be Possible.

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject.

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus.

Not coincidently this is exactly the category of evidence HJs normally use to supposedly demonstrate HJ as we've seen that Paul does not Pass any other Category of evidence that I have. Now for Galatians:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Galatians_1

1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother."

Criteria please:

Information which refers to Jesus. Yes (Qualified) - Indirect reference

Condition = Must be Possible. Yes

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject. No

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus. No

Pass - poor quality


4:4 "but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,"

Criteria please:

Information which refers to Jesus. Yes

Condition = Must be Possible. Qualified

"born of a woman, born under the law," is Possible. "God sent forth his Son" is not.

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject. Yes

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus. No

Pass

And, in case there was any doubt that "Mark" took ideas from Paul and created a Narrative from them:

2:4 "and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

3:5 "He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

3:26 'For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus."

4:6 "And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

4:19 "My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you--"

5:14 "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

6:13 "For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh."

We need another Thread to compare the Themes of "Mark" with ideas in Paul. "Mark" understood the Irony of Paul's arguments and made it the basic Style of his Story.



Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

aa5874

The Septuagint or the OT was available for the authors of Mark and Paul. Both could have fabricated their Jesus according to the Scriptures. Mark does not need Paul.

Galation 3.13 appears to be a part copy of Deuteronomy 21.23 , "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Mark could have used this verse to fabricate part of the crucifixion and burial of his Jesus.

JoeWallack

JW:
My criteria here "Personal nature of evidence" =

Information which refers to Jesus.

Condition = Must be Possible.

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject.

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus.

Not coincidently this is exactly the category of evidence HJs normally use to supposedly demonstrate HJ as we've seen that Paul does not Pass any other Category of evidence that I have. Now for Philippians:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Philippians

[Nothing]

And, in case there was any doubt that "Mark" took ideas from Paul and created a Narrative from them:

1:29 "because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:"

2:15 "that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye are seen as lights in the world,"

3:8 "Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ,"



Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

gurugeorge

To me the idea that's most consistent with the evidence is that Paul did initially receive some "good news of a victory won" from human beings, and that was the "inverted Messiah" idea from the Jerusalem crowd (Cephas, etc.) - i.e. a small religious community that developed a new concept of the Messiah, and purported to find the instantiation of that concept (in some vague-ish recent-ish past) in Scripture (if you squinted at it). This is what he's talking about in the famous passage in Corinthians.

(By "inverted Messiah", I mean the concept of a Messiah that inverted the traditional tropes - instead of one to come, he'd already been and won his victory, instead of being a military victory it was spiritual, instead of being glorious he died a shameful, ignominious death - thereby fooling the "Archons", who were looking out for the traditional kingly victor to come.)

This idea might have developed from the community's visionary experience, scriptural exegesis, or more likely some combination of both.

Paul then received direct visionary experience of an extension of this idea to the Gentiles. (e.g. because it was a spiritual victory it could be a victory for all of us - this is the "good news of a victory won" that could be spread to the Gentiles.) This is what he talks about when he's stressing the spiritual provenance of his gospel elsewhere.

I think this is consistent with the distinction Amaleq13 is talking about, but also consistent with a version of the MJ idea (because the piece of the puzzle that's missing to make it HJ-friendly is the idea that Cephas, etc., knew this Messiah they were the first to transmit the good news about in person - this isn't explicit in the Corinthians passage, it's just been read into it).

aa5874

Psalms 22 provided the last words of Mark's Jesus crucifixion and suffering, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?......" (Mk 15.34 & Ps 22.1). Mark does not need Paul. Both authors could have had access to the Septuagint or OT.

Amaleq13

BINGO!!! :thumbs:

gurugeorge

*GG mops his brow* whew, I'm glad we agree on something!

Amaleq13

I think we would agree on the prima facie issue as well if you could stop yourself from going beyond that relatively superficial consideration.

karlmarx

This makes sense.

As much as I'm sympathetic to the MJ cause, doesn't it stand to reason that if Christianity predated Paul (and this much is certain since he persecuted them), that there MUST have been aspects of Christianity that Paul learnt through means other than his "personal revelation"?

However, how much of Paul's gospel can be attributed to personal revelation, and how much to what he learned from other people? Granted, Paul claims it was revealed to him, but if Christianity predated him, some of his knowledge of Christianity must have been "received" from other people.

Where to draw the line as to what is revelation only? The crucifixion and resurrection? The message to the gentiles? The name "Jesus" itself?

JoeWallack

JW:
My criteria here "Personal nature of evidence" =

Information which refers to Jesus.

Condition = Must be Possible.

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject.

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus.

Not coincidently this is exactly the category of evidence HJs normally use to supposedly demonstrate HJ as we've seen that Paul does not Pass any other Category of evidence that I have. Now for 1 Thessalonians:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_1

2:14 "For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;"

Criteria please:

Information which refers to Jesus. Yes

Condition = Must be Possible. Yes

Quality Factors:

1) Jesus is Primary subject. Yes

2) Evidence is unique to Jesus. No

Pass

And, in case there was any doubt that "Mark" took ideas from Paul and created a Narrative from them:

2:16 "forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

2:18 "because we would fain have come unto you, I Paul once and again; and Satan hindered us."

4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

5:1 "But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

5:3 When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape.

5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:

5:5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;

5:6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober."



Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page