braces_for_impact

I didn't say my questions. But except for him defining faith as trust, I didn't see him answer any of them. I understand he had a computer problem, so I'll cut him some slack, this time. <-----denotes humor.

braces_for_impact

OMG /drool

I am so jealous! There is nowhere to buy decent Polish food here in Indianapolis that I can find.

4God

toad...was a poor choice i agree! but i guess i assumed(bad 4God, bad bad 4God) that most people would not just throw off what i was saying simply because it is diametrically opposed to their viewpoint. I assumed they'd look at what i was saying. in retrospect, still a bad choice of wording.


brighid...that faith was a big issue for most...when reviewing the posts that seemed to come up most...i'll re-review and see if something else was larger....i know the "how did you test your faith" was big too...as well as what prayers God has answered for you....i thought i went to into that just now(testing faith that is)

...i will be going into more detail of how God has specifically answered my prayers later...though i am a witness of one...i could be making it up so what i say will probably be disbelieved...and to a degree, rightfully so!

Rational BAC

Trouble is ----if we all answered in kind all perceived condescension, all discussions would end up in silly cat fights and go nowhere. We ALL are quilty of seeming to be condescending without really meaning to be--atheists and theists alike.

I say--------- let it go unless it is the most obvious kind of condescension that both theist and atheist can easily recognize no matter from which side it comes.

Steven Carr

No it is not a matter of opinion. Your cited text was from a Gnostic library.

Au contraire, I answered in a very detailed manner. It is you who produced a content free reply.

Now why did John believe a women's testimony could be perfectly credible?

What evidence do you have that the world was created in 6 days?

What DID Thallus write about Jesus or Pilate or a crucifixion? In which work of Thallus can we read it? Who was Thallus anyway? Tell us when he lived. Naturally, you will need documentation and not just Christian paraphrases from centuries later. I regarde that in the same way your would regard Mormon parpahrases of what people might or might not have said

And look at http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm to see these miracles demolished as the plagiarised tales they are.

brighid

It is a big issue for most, and so is "testing your faith." You should do a search of discussion in GRD (General Religious Discussions), MD (Miscellaneous Discussions) and BC&H (Bibilcal Criticism & History) for the answers to many of your questions.

One thing you will find is that some atheists will react rather glibbly to many of your questions, because for most of us they are old hat and have been hashed out some many times in here our brains have become numb. It will save you some frustration (but not time) to review those discussions, and even post your biblical faith testimony in BC&H, as well as Science and Skepticism. Those forums have some extremely knowledgable people, including Christians, who will be more then happy to debate and provide you with a lot of information you may not have come across yet.

I am about to leave so I won't have time to post the link, but could someone please post the link for "atheist testimony" (or is it a sticky?)

You are going to find that we have all tested our "faith" as you have, and the evolution of our deconversion (for many anyway) was gradual. I know my own deconversion was gradual and I came here as a believer. I have stayed many years as a non-believer.

If you would like some good examples of our esteemed Christians here (who are seasoned veterans of iidb) search for Helen M, seebs, wilderneese, Vinnie (and there are others, but my brain is drawing a blank at the moment.)

Please, do not assume that we do not know your path, that we are ignorant of faith, prayer, etc., or that atheists are such because we are "angry at God", "confused", "just rebeling", etc. (they typical accusations we receive.) Please understand, despite our disagreement, that we have come to our conclusions as earnestly as you feel you have come to yours. Many of us have agonized over that decision but simply could not ignore what we knew, and the unanswered questions only made things worse.

I don't believe I have come across any atheist here (but I cannot claim to know every one) that believes science is infallible. Hang out in S&S for a while if you doubt me. We believe it is the best vehicle to explaining the world we live in, and we are confident in science because it have a well proven track record. The one component that gives me the most confidence in science is that is constantly seeks to disprove itself, and when new and credible evidence is found, it changes accordingly. Therefore, I know science will, with all it flaws, provide the world with the best answers available at the time.

There are reasons we no longer believe that seizures are caused by demonic possession. There are reasons we no longer believe that lightning is the wrath of God (thank you Benjamin Franklin.) There are reasons we no longer believe the Sun revolves around the Earth and that we are the center of the Universe. There are reasons we know that dinosaurs walked the Earth (although they are not mentioned in the Bible.) and so on and so forth ... and reason and know are the key words here.

Eventually, if man does not manage to destroy the Earth, science will answer many of the questions that remain unanswered today. Maybe it will never answer ALL the questions to all the secrets of the Universe, but one thing I am confident in, if there is a God and if there is a soul, science will eventually find it.

Until then I will live my life by what I know, not what I assume and I will remain open to new information and facts that may cause me to re-evaluate all that know today. I am not tied to my lack of belief. I am bound to the discovery of truth and knowledge. If I must believe something without evidence, I am afraid I cannot believe in something as important as the existence of a God or the resting place of my eternal soul. I MUST know, to the very best of human ability, what IS, and not what is supposed.

If this allegedly moral and perfect God punishes me for it, so be it. If He/She/It/They are morally perfect He/et al would be unable to send me to eternal torment in Hell for nothing more then disbelieving in the existense of said Being. That action would be immoral, and therefore I do not worry about my soul, the afterlife, or the existence of deities. It seems pointless to me. My life and my actions would be no different if there were this Christian God, at least anything that should count toward moral judgment.

Brighid

4God

Ok. I said that since the gospels claim women are the ones who discover the body that it is further evidence to its validity since the customs at the time were such that women weren't perceived as credible. So John would believe a woman's testimony would be credible because it happened that way and so in spite of the customs of the day reported it at such.

As stated, I believe that one can see how God created the world in six days. What is covered in the Bible, IMHO, states how it happened. You can believe it or not. Just like you can believe the Big Bang Theory or not. The lack of evidence does not inherently mean that what is purported is not true. Instead, if one looks at other "testable" situations, one can make a determination(though perhaps faulty). In other words, since you and I were not present at the formation of the world we have to use other techniques. In so doing, my research points towards God creating the earth. Seeing as though, my quotes here and there do not sway the multitudes as it were, i will have to go into more detail of this after christmas when I have more specifics than this guy said this here. I think that's what you are looking for and I want to provide that information.


ok...you're misinterpreting my reference

Thallus' claim to fame is that he substantiates the biblical claim that the earth was darkened for a time. Most critics, site Pliny, Senecca, and Josephus as not having mentioned such an occurence in their accounts of the same period.

The question:what work of Thallus and who was he anyway are your typical atheist objections to Thallus. You know as I do, that his writings have not survived and that the debate continues as to where he dates in history. I can give you reasons why I believe him and you can site reasons why not to....My position is not to prove you wrong or me right, but to demonstrate that a reasonable person can arrive at my conclusion. And until some dead sea scroll uncovers History The debate will continue. Thallus is not the lynchpin upon which I base my faith...he's just a reference point.

Steven Carr

Are you sure you went to an Ivy League Uni? John 4:39 reports that ordinary members of the public believed women's testimony.

You claim that women's testimony was worthless, yet the Gospels portray people as finding women's testimony credible.

The Gospels think the customs of the day is that women's testimony WAS credible. This is a mistake according to you.

What do you mean I can believe it or not? You have put forward NOTHING for me to believe, while there is tons of evidence for a universe billions of years old.

No he doesn't.

We know that part of the earth is darkened when there is an eclipse. Somebody might have recorded the eclipse in 29 AD, and a later Christian produced propaganda from that.




No you can't. You can't even quote what he wrote. How can you 'believe' something you have never even seen?

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/thallus.html

4God is really bad at producing ANYTHING to back up his claims.

Has he actually done any research on any of this? Surely it should just flow from his computer. Instead, we get a string of stuff saying 'You can believe it or not. It's all a matter of opinion.'

Carrier on Thallus

Africanus wrote :-
This event followed each of his deeds, and healings of body and soul, and knowledge of hidden things, and his resurrection from the dead, all sufficiently proven to the disciples before us and to his apostles: after the most dreadful darkness fell over the whole world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake and much of Judaea and the rest of the land was torn down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason it seems to me. For....how are we to believe that an eclipse happened when the moon was diametrically opposite the sun?


This is all we get. It isn't clear what Thallus actually said, or whether he even mentioned Jesus at all. Africanus is merely criticising the possibility that the darkness at the death of Christ was a solar eclipse, and thus a natural rather than a supernatural event--an attack addressed in the Apology of Tertullian, and voiced by the Jews in the Gospel of Nicodemus, which may have been written in the time of Africanus. Although this implies that Thallus mentioned the death of Christ in some way, it does not entail it. For Thallus may have simply recorded an eclipse that occurred around the time that Christ was believed to have died, with Africanus connecting the events on his own. We do not have the context of this quote, and we do not know what else Africanus said about this event or about Thallus. Of course, even if Thallus did mention the death of Jesus, we have already shown that he then probably wrote in the 2nd century, when we know this gospel story was already circulating nearly a century after the event. In such a case, Thallus is not an independent witness to the story, but is merely responding to Christian literature. This makes him of practically no use to apologists.

--------------------------------------------

Steven Carr

4God
Thallus' claim to fame is that he substantiates the biblical claim that the earth was darkened for a time. Most critics, site Pliny, Senecca, and Josephus as not having mentioned such an occurence in their accounts of the same period.

The question:what work of Thallus and who was he anyway are your typical atheist objections to Thallus. You know as I do, that his writings have not survived and that the debate continues as to where he dates in history.

CARR
I love the way 4God cites works he admits don't exist, and say these non-existent works substantiate the Biblical claim.

Ask Christians for evidence , and they say 'Here is some non-existent evidence. You can believe it or not.'

Rational BAC

Steven-----

"Are you sure you went to an Ivy League college?"---directed at 4God--

Come on now---weren't we just talking about perceived condescension? That type of thing would insult me and I just went to party school FSU.

Remember the golden rule---if don't want it done to you, don't do it.