TedM

There is nothing 'illogical' about pointing out the fact that well-meaning people interpret the same even differently and mis-remember things, and saying that THEREFORE historical differences in accounts can be explained by well-meaning people. We don't have to ASSUME intentional deceit. IF deceit IS intended, then we might NOT EXPECT the kinds of differences you see. Since they are there, they shout out for an explanation. One you have not even tried to give yet.

I can't say it any more clearly. Would you care to deal with what I just wrote? I ask because so often you simply ignore it and repeat your mantras instead. I'm trying to communicate here.

aa5874

Who are your "well-meaning" people that mis-remembered things??

Paul claimed he was a Witness of the Resurrected Jesus and Testified that God raised Jesus from the dead.

The Pauline writer challenged his readers to call him a False witness if the dead rise not. He also claimed Over 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus. What could he have mis-remembered??

Well, the dead rise NOT. The Pauline writer is a False witness--a DECEIVER.

The Pauline writer Falsely testified "all over" the Roman Empire that God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:15 KJVThe Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century--Not in the 1st century as claim by the False Witnesses called Paul and the author of Acts.

Duvduv

My mistake, TedM. They are in the thread called
WHO decided on a NT Christian Canon?!

TedM

We are talking about INTENTIONS. One can be a false witness (ie claim to have seen/experienced something that didn't really happen) and still be convinced he/she is telling about a real event. This happens all the time with normal, well-meaning people. Psychologists are very familiar with the phenomenon.

You didn't address this part:


You DID address this part:

aa5874

My argument is that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century and it is actually supported by actual recovered dated sources.

I do NOT employ hypothetical unknown evidence and imagination.

Now, in "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman, the writer claimed he has two key data for the historical Jesus.

1. The crucifixion.

2. Paul and his associates, the apostles Peter and James.

Ehrman seems to have forgotten that he has already Discredited the NT.

And NOT only has he forgotten, Ehrman now Believes the NT stories about Paul without any external non-apologetic corroboration.

Ehrman appears to be a Full-Blown inerrantist or fundamentalist.

Examine page 120 of Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman Ehrman Believes Paul without any credible non-apologetic corroboration.

Ehrman used Acts of the Apostles, a work of known fiction, to assemble the biography of Paul.

Acts of the Apostles begins with the Myth Fable that the resurrected Jesus met with the eleven apostles and told them to Wait in Jerusalem to get Power from the Holy Ghost and then Jesus Ascends.

Acts 1:8 KJV Jesus Vanished--he went to heaven in a cloud!!!

Acts of the Apostles has NOTHING about an historical Jesus.

Acts of the Apostles is PURE Mythology of the resurrected and ascended Son of God and the Holy Ghost.

Without the Power of the Promised Holy Ghost there would be NO Jesus cult.

1. In Acts, Jesus was NOT even on earth when the Jesus cult was started.

2. Saul/Paul did NOT see Jesus--Saul WAS Blinded.

3. In Acts there are no references to the Pauline letters.

The author of Acts has shown that the Jesus cult started on Mythological Belief and NOT when Jesus supposedly was alive.

Acts of the Apostles is a source of Mythology--Not history.

Ehrman used Acts of the Apostles for the history of Paul, James and Cephas.

Sheshbazzar

True aa. And that is in fact my position.

The 'Hebrew Scriptures' as we have them are the products of a revised and highly fictional history produced as religious propaganda by a power grabbing Judean 'priesthood' and foisted off on a people who formerly had diverse origins and hero myths which they had inherited from earlier Mesopotamian cultures.
These literate Judean 'Jewish' 'priests' selected among these ancient Hebrew cultural myths and revised and wove them into that highly fictional 'Israelite national history' known to the world as the 'Torah', which was actually the political propaganda that formed the basis of their claims to possess a Divine right of rule, and of an Elohim (God) commanded support by the people.
Not that these fantastic stories ever took place in any reality, Only the subjugating of the people under a bogus Gawd 'elected and ordained 'priesthood'.

That the stories and events are fiction does not affect the fact that they incorporate material and concepts gleaned from much older and far more advanced civilizations than themselves.

But with respect to the NT writings which were fashioned by 'quote mining' these Torah, Ketuv'eem, and Nabi'eem texts, it mattered not at all that they were fictional or had ever suffered any alterations, only that their content was by the 1st century 'fixed', stable, and the 'standard' upon which the new mythology could be established and built.

You misunderstand if you think that I support the overall veracity or the mythologies of these old Jewish writings.
The 'hidden things' and 'revealings' that I allude to are NOT 'Jewish', and in fact are not even 'Hebrew' in their origins, but go back to the dawn of Middle Eastern human civilizations and are integral to the geo-metrical (earth-measure), mathematical, and time keeping systems as employed by the Sumerian civilization of 6000 years ago.

Abram the Hebrew, the fictional Biblical hero was a product of that culture. The Hebrew system of standard linear measure, weights, volume, and time measure (no, the Hebrews nor the latter Jews, DID NOT originate the seven day week) was inherited from these earlier peoples, and either consciously or unconsciously is employed and played upon throughout both the 'Old' and the 'New' Testaments.
The content of these writings with regard to numbering and measuring indicate that there was indeed an ongoing conscious effort to continue to employ and to incorporate this ancient pre-Hebaric geometrical and mathematical material.

As no one else seems to be able or willing to pick up on the heavy hints that I have repeatedly dropped regarding 'Paul' recording the fathoms at 'about midnight on the fourteenth day', (Act 27:27-28) it is not simply the dropping of some random numbers, but is about the measuring of time and the ethics involved in doing so.

First, midnight on the fourteenth day, or the fourteenth night in succession, points back to the legend of the First Passover when death passed over the children of Israel at midnight on the fourteenth night of the year. (Ex 12:6, 12:29 12:42 (The NIV translation comes closest.)
Not that there was an observance of Passover going on that particular night in Acts 27, but it was written to indicate that the rules regarding the measurement of time are consistent at any time. (we are able to experience).
Fourteen days is fourteen days no matter when, or where it is measured.(earth time) And midnight on the fourteenth day of any fourteen day count can only come at one moment on one particular day and hour.

HOWEVER. whom is doing the measuring and setting 'The Times' can have a dramatic effect on the results.

'Paul's' point being that the authorative 'Jewish' method of determining the timing of The Passover was in error, and was (and it still is) inconsistent with a correct understanding of the scriptures.
In fact the entire Jesus Gospel story is based around re-presenting the proper sequence and timing of The Passover. As such, The Gospel' began as a religious/political propaganda writing produced by a Jewish faction that opposed and disagreed with the established Jewish Priesthood's manner of calculating the time of The Passover, and the dates of the other High Holy Days of Jews yearly religious calandar.

Using the ancient system of time calculation beginning at sunset on the first day of the year, that fourteenth 'midnight' will come at the ending of the three hundred and thirteenth hour of the year. Note that fifteen full days is three hundred and sixty hours. A circuit of hours.
Not too amazingly then that the fifteenth day of the ancient year is always a High Sabbath, regardless of what day of the week it lands upon.

Returning to those twenty fathoms and fifteen fathoms of 'Paul'.
Fifteen fathoms is ninety feet or one thousand eighty inches, and twenty fathoms is one hundred twenty feet or one thousand four hundred and forty inches. The sum of the two measures is thirty five fathoms or two hundred ten feet or twenty five hundred twenty inches.

Twenty five hundred twenty hours counting from the first hour of the first day of the week is fifteen full weeks, or seven circuits of fifteen days (or of three hundred sixty hours) which is also fifteen circuits of one hundred sixty eight hours (or one hundred sixty eight circuits of fifteen hours)

Along this line it may also be calculated that three hundred sixty weeks contain twenty five hundred twenty days.
If one successively multiples the ten fingers (digits) of their hands, the product will be three million six hundred twenty eight thousand eight hundred, the exact number of minutes contained in three hundred sixty full weeks. A 'finger'-breadth in Scripture is a unit of linear measure, being seven tenths.

So. In light of these observations (and thousands of others) and measurements of geometry and linear lengths beyond recounting, I cannot but conclude that there is far more to these old religious tales than being simple fictional story telling, or lying.
They are political propaganda documents first produced to discredit, undermine, and overthrow the authority of the then existing Jewish power structure.

.

aa5874

Bart Ehrman in chapter 4 of "Did Jesus Exist?" page 107 claimed the author of Acts of the Apostles is an independent witness for Jesus as a man.

Ehrman is completely in error. Ehrman mis-represents his own discredited sources.

The Jesus story in Acts BEGINS with a Mythological Jesus--Not an historical Jesus

From the very start of Acts Jesus ASCENDS in a cloud.

Acts of the Apostles is just a Myth Fable.

Acts 1--Jesus Ascends in a cloud.

Acts 2. The Holy Ghost gives power to the Apostles.

Act 2-8--The Power of the Holy Ghost allows the disciples to speak fluently in foreign languages and perform fantastic miracles.

Acts 9--Saul the persecutor is blinded and hear a voice of the ascended Jesus.

Acts 9-28--Saul/Paul first received the Power of the Holy Ghost, meets with disciples and preaches Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

The author of Acts wrote about the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Acts of the Apostles has NOTHING at all about Jesus as an actual LIVING man.

Paul in Acts is NOT a witness for the historical Jesus--Paul is a witness of the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Paul and the author of Acts are witnesses of the Power of Mythological Holy Ghost.

Ehrman relies on sources of Mythology for the history of his Jesus and he does so without a shred of actual dated evidence for Paul, Peter and James in the 1st century and before c 70 CE.

Ehrman has NO key historical data for his Jesus--only Mythology.

Acts 1:8 KJV

Sheshbazzar

In composing complex posts it is easy for errors to go undetected. In my previous post there was a mistake that slipped by me until the 90 minute time limit on making corrections expired, here then is that section revised with the corrections underlined;
I would be remiss If I did not take this opportunity to point out that midnight hour is not only remembrance of the midnight hour of death passing over the children of Israel, but a remembrance of that hour in the Garden as written of in Matthew 26:38-40 and Mark 14:34-37. Guess not.

The members of my own congregations assemble for a couple of hours, pray and sing bit, shake hands, pat backs, and go home to their comfy beds, most are sound asleep every year in that oh so memorable Memorial midnight hour on the NIGHT of VIGILS. (Hebrew; ליל שמרים 'Leyl she'moo'reem')

Midnight on the fourteenth night of the year;

"It is a night to be much OBSERVED" (KJV)

"on this night all the Israelites are to KEEP VIGIL" (NIV)

"this same night is a night of WATCHING" (EVS)

"to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations." (KJV)

"for the generations to come." (NIV)

"by all the people of Israel throughout their generations." (EVS)

This is that night, that one single night, the fourteenth night in each year, every year, in all generations, that the children of Israel, and followers of The Torah and the Saviour are supposed to STAY AWAKE! dressed, ready, and expecting their deliverance.
The apostles slept. That is the story. And the disciples still sleep. That is the irony.

Most would be disciples still 'Sleep on!'.. in their utter unawareness of what is going down. (Matt 26:45 & Mark 14:41)

Those who do 'awake' and, remain awake and do seek to keep the vigil in its appointed season from year to year, learn thereby.
Not that any man would be by so doing 'justified' or be made 'innocent', but at least would not need to remain 'asleep' and in ignorance concerning the order and the goings of such matters. And the whys of why such myths were penned.

aa5874

When I read "Did Jesus Exist?" I do not get the impression that Bart Ehrman is an historian--- he comes across as a magician--he makes things appear from nowhere.

Magicians will pull Rabbits from a empty hat but Ehrman can do better than that.

Ehrman will make the history of his Jesus appear from nowhere.

Ehrman has written multiple books and has been on many debates where he Exposes that the NT is NOT historically reliable and filled with discrepancies, contradictions and events that most likely did NOT happen.

Even accounts of Jesus that at first appear plausible has been shown by Ehrman to be not historically accurate or virtually impossible.

Ehrman discredits the WORLD wide census, the triumphant entry and parts of the crucifixion story with the exchange of Barabbas for Jesus.

Over and over Ehrman has declared both in person and in his books that the NT is NOT historically reliable.

Well, in "Did Jesus Exist?" Bart Ehrman has outperformed Houdini and Copperfield--some of the world's greatest magician.

Ehrman by some magical means has declared that the Gospels are among the best attested from the ancient world.

"Did Jesus Exist?" page 181-184-- New Testament authors are unknown and filled with discrepancies, contradictions and accounts of Jesus that most likely did NOT happen.

Read the words of the "magician". It is show time. Ehrman will perform his Greatest Magic Trick-- Attestation WITHOUT corroboration

"Did Jesus Exist?" page 180--....the Gospels are among the best attested books from the ancient world, we are regrettably hindered in knowing what the author of those books originally wrote.

"Did Jesus Exist?" is a book for aspiring magicians--not for history.

aa5874

In the Pauline writings it is claimed that Over 500 people at once saw the resurrected Jesus and that without the resurrection there would be No Remission of Sins.

1 Cor. 15 1 Cor. 15 The Pauline Revealed Gospel from the resurrected Jesus of Salvation by the Resurrection is unique to the Pauline writer--no other author of the NT Canon made such a claim.

But, if the Pauline writings were composed before the death of Nero and that there were Churches of the Jesus cult then we would at least expect that some of the authors would emulate the Pauline writer and acknowledge his supoposed Letters to the Churches.

We have complete Silence in the NT from ALL Non-Pauline authors for the Pauline Revealed Gospel--Remission of Sins by the resurrection.

From gMatthew to Revelation--Nothing.

Incredibly, even Before the Fall of the Temple the Pauline Revealed Gospel should have been known.

But, it is NOT only the authors of the Canon who did NOT acknowledge the Pauline writings, even the Apocryphal writers wrote NOTHING of the Pauline Revealed Gopspel.

Examine the non-Canonised Gospels, even the Acts of Paul, does NOT make mention of the Pauline revealed Gospel--Remmission of sins by the resurrection and that over 500 people saw Jesus.

It is clear that the Pauline Revealed Gospel and the Pauline over 500 post-resurrection visit are NOT Attested by Non-Canonised writings but they Attest the Jesus story found in the Canon.

How is it that virtually every Gospel author, Canonised and Non-Canonised, did NOT refer to the Pauline letters which should have been well known since before c 68 CE in Churches "all over" the Roman Empire??

It would appear that virtually every Gospel writer did NOT attend a Pauline Church or was never instructed about the Pauline Reveaed Gospel.

The Pauline writings were NOT known to the Canonised and Non-Canonised Gospel writers because they were NOT composed and were NOT read in the Churches--there were NO Pauline letters and Pauline Churches in the 1st century.

It was the "Memoirs of the Apostles" that were read in the Churches on Sundays.

Justin's First Apology LXVII The writings of Justin Martyr can explain why the Canonised and Non-Canonised Gospel writers did NOT know of the Pauline Revealed Gospel and the Over 500 resurrection story.

The Gospel writers of antiquity may have been to Justin's Church--Not Paul's.

The story of Jesus PREDATES Paul the Persecutor.

The Jesus story was composed in the 2nd century based on recovered dated manuscripts.