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04-05-2010, 07:59 AM | #21 | |
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The material you posted is substantially fraudulent, by the way. An instance on the first line: trying to suggest that Matthew was anonymous because we don't know for sure to whom the Ebionites attributed the lost Gospel of the Hebrews is delicious, if you are as cynical as I am. There is no evidence that any of the gospels were ever anonymous, at least until 1970. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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04-05-2010, 08:10 AM | #22 | |
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Can you list any 2nd century manuscripts of any of those gospels that actually have "according to Mark/Matt/Luke/John" in it? No? Didn't think so. |
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04-05-2010, 08:16 AM | #23 | |
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By all means start with Misquoting Jesus but continue on to Ehrman's "Lost Christianities." It's a discussion of how "orthodoxy" emerged from the pile of competing doctrines which all existed early on. If you can't find that book, PM me an email address. Somewhere around here I have an electronic version of it. I think I might have Misquoting Jesus, too. Personally, I hate reading books on a computer but I freely admit to being an old fart and I know that young people do not share my prejudice on that subject. |
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04-05-2010, 08:53 AM | #24 |
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Well... this has kind of turned into a debate. Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to read up on both sides of the issue.
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04-05-2010, 09:18 AM | #25 | |||
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It's best not to make arguments from silence. Particularly considering that 99% of the texts from the 2nd century are lost. The testimony of authorship by those who could read those texts, however, is unanimous. Quote:
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As I said, there is no evidence whatever of anonymity. I notice that those who are most certain that the gospels are anonymous don't know any evidence either. We need merely compare the gospels with the letter to the Hebrews, which clearly lost the name of its author at a very early date, to see the difference. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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04-05-2010, 09:24 AM | #26 | |||||||||||||||||
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See also http://www.earlychristianwritings.com Quote:
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The author of gLuke appears to confirm that he wrote his Jesus story after some other story about Jesus was available. Now, to be called a Christian in antiquity it was not necessary at all to have believed in a character called Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost. An apologetic source of antiquity, Justin Martyr, wrote that there were people who were called christians, almost the whole of Samaria, who believed in the Holy One Simon Magus since the days of the Emperor Claudius 41-54 CE. There are other apologetic sources which also show that there multiple verions of Jesus Christ like Irenaeus "Against Heresies" and Hippolytus "Refutations Against All Heresies". Quote:
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This is a writer under the name of Origen writing in the 3rd century in the preface to De Principiis Quote:
So, it would appear that there were major dis-agreements even among Jesus believers up to the third century. Quote:
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Justin Martyr in "First Apology", written around the middle of the 2nd century, wrote that it was a document called the "Memoirs of the Apostles" that was read in the churches on Sundays. "First Apology" LXVII Quote:
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I will give an example. The writer called Eusebius appeared to have mis-represented the writing of Josephus and others. This is Josephus on the death of Herod Agrippa. Antiquities of the Jews 19.8.2 Quote:
Now, this is Eusebius referring to AJ 19.8.2 in "Church History" 2.10.6 Quote:
It is clear that Josephus did not make any mention of any angel. Eusebius misrepresented Josephus in an attempt to historicise events found in Acts of the Apostles. Quote:
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Look at "Church History" under the name of Eusebius. Even known forgeries or non-authentic writings are included in the Canon. "Church History" 3.3.1 Quote:
I find it totally unconvincing that an early SECT of Jesus believers would use the birth narrative of gMatthew and gLuke at the same time when they are totally contradictory and each one renders the other as fiction. Essentially the author of gMatthew claimed it was a complete secret and only the Magis knew where and when Jesus was born in Jerusalem before fleeing to Egypt, but the author of gLuke, without even mentioning the Magis, claim that there was a big angelic celebration and the shepherds were told the exact location of the baby Jesus and the shepherds in turn told others of Jesus after they visited him in the manger. In essence, gMatthew's secret birth narrative was false or erroneous based on gLuke. I find it to be very unlikely that these two contradictory narratives were simultaneosly original, one must have been later. The Canon as found today must be late, at least after the middle of the 2nd century. |
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04-05-2010, 09:28 AM | #27 |
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aa5874, thank you for the different opinion on Roger's posts. Roger, thank you for your opinion as well.
It appears many people have many different and conflicting opinions on the matter. Well, I assumed as much. More reason for me to read everything I can on the matter and decide for myself I suppose. |
04-05-2010, 09:30 AM | #28 | |||
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You should realize that you are also making an argument from silence, albeit in the opposite direction. Quote:
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Are the gospels and the epistles the same type of writing? Genre? No? Why the comparison then? An epistle addressed to someone should have an author but in the case of Hebrews it doesn't. The only way this would be a valid comparison would be to assume that the gospels were personal letters written to someone. |
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04-05-2010, 10:50 AM | #29 |
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It is certainly possible to depict the past in terms of our own prejudices, if we so wish.
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04-05-2010, 10:52 AM | #30 | |
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All the best, Roger Pearse |
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