Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Opinion · 02-28-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16)

"The evangelists were fiction-writers - not observers
or eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus"

(Porphyry, translated by Hoffmann)

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

King James Bible
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

American King James Version
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

American Standard Version
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness.

Darby Bible Translation
For we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty.

English Revised Version
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Webster's Bible Translation
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eye-witnesses of his majesty.

World English Bible
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Young's Literal Translation
For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty --

Opinion · 02-28-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

We can all become children of God. Jesus is the path I believe since he is the son of God. You don't have to believe that or that we can also become children of God and not just his creation. You don't have to believe in any of that. But he did exist mentioned by Josephus and the NT.

The bible also says we were created from God. We sound like a myth too but we exist.

“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16)

So, are you claiming that the disciples did witness Jesus as he floated through the clouds?

Acts 1.9

Quote:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

I think Acts 1.9 is a cunningly devised fable.

They also witnessed him do lots of miracles and walk on water and many many other things. But you don't have to believe that.

Opinion · 02-28-2009, 09:16 AM

And since I can read Spanish. The Spanish one's match the English one's as well.

2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Porque cuando os dimos a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no seguimos fábulas ingeniosamente inventadas, sino que fuimos testigos oculares de su majestad.

2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005)
Porque cuando les dimos a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no seguimos fábulas ingeniosamente inventadas, sino que fuimos testigos oculares de Su majestad.

2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
Porque no os hemos dado á conocer la potencia y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, siguiendo fábulas por arte compuestas; sino como habiendo con nuestros propios ojos visto su majestad.

2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569)
Porque nosotros no os hemos dado a conocer la potencia y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesús, el Cristo, siguiendo fábulas por arte compuestas; sino como habiendo visto con nuestros propios ojos su majestad.

2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Modern
Porque os hemos dado a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no siguiendo fábulas artificiosas, sino porque fuimos testigos oculares de su majestad.

arnoldo · 02-28-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16)

"The evangelists were fiction-writers - not observers
or eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus"

(Porphyry, translated by Hoffmann)

Take a look at the meaning of the original language of the statement you provided. . .

Quote:

There is no indication in the notes of why HISTORAS is translated as 'observers or eye-witnesses', when there is a perfectly good English word 'historians' available. However I find that it is a commonplace in 20th-century atheist polemic that the gospel-writers were not 'eye-witnesses'. Whether or not this is the source of the idea, the coincidence is suspicious. But this concept is not present in the text - the idea is actually that they were making it up, rather in the manner of pagan fables. Macarius understands this, and so promptly brands the suggestion 'Hellenic' (i.e. pagan). Likewise the choice of the term 'fiction-writers' is unfortunate, as in English this means only the authors of modern realistic narrative fiction. This genre did not exist in antiquity. EPHEURETAS means simply 'inventors'. These may seem small differences; but they do create confusion in the minds of the readers, who presume that Porphyry is a witness to ancient writers saying the same thing as modern atheists. Porphyry is not making any point about whether they were there at the time or not, but rather about whether what they say is true. . .

What of the text of Porphyry that emerges? Was the enterprise worthwhile? Rather to my surprise, the answer is that it was. A definite picture of the nature of Porphyry's work emerges, in a far clearer manner than is possible from reading Crafer. It also becomes clear precisely why the book had such power that it was singled out for destruction as mischievous.

The reason was not the quality of the surface arguments. Porphyry adopted an 'idiot-boy' literalism as his tool to debunk. Anything that could be made to sound discreditable, anything that did not fit with the tenor of contemporay prejudice, any statement that could be made to sound contradictory, could be presented as a reason to deride the Christians. However, such a approach is unimpressive to anyone except a believer. Such people could have their faith in anti-Christianism bolstered, and be encouraged to sneer and have gibes ready to throw. But the unconvinced reader would see easily that such statements can be made about anything, however worthy.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/porphyry/hoffmann.htm

aa5874 · 02-28-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

So, are you claiming that the disciples did witness Jesus as he floated through the clouds?

Acts 1.9

I think Acts 1.9 is a cunningly devised fable.

They also witnessed him do lots of miracles and walk on water and many many other things. But you don't have to believe that.

There are a lot of false witnesses in the NT. People in the NT witnessed many things that are implausible.

You don't have to believe anything in the NT.

I don't believe anything about the NT until I can get external credible corroboration, there is just too much fiction and lies inside.

Opinion · 02-28-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

"The evangelists were fiction-writers - not observers
or eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus"

(Porphyry, translated by Hoffmann)

Is that really what tou_j Eu0aggelista_j e0feure/taj, ou0x i3storaj tw~n w~eri\ to_n I0hsou~n gegenh~sqai wracewn means?

Jeffrey

From another website posted by another forum poster he shows it just as his criticism not translation.

"Pagan historian Porphyry wrote another critique of Christian beliefs "Against the Christians", including such criticism such as :

"The evangelists were fiction writers-- not observers or eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus. Each of the four contradicts the other in writing his account of the events of his suffering and crucifixion"

Roger Pearse · 02-28-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Is that really what tou_j Eu0aggelista_j e0feure/taj, ou0x i3storaj tw~n w~eri\ to_n I0hsou~n gegenh~sqai wracewn means?

Jeffrey

From another website posted by another forum poster he shows it just as his criticism not translation.

"Pagan historian Porphyry wrote another critique of Christian beliefs "Against the Christians", including such criticism such as :

"The evangelists were fiction writers-- not observers or eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus. Each of the four contradicts the other in writing his account of the events of his suffering and crucifixion"

The quotation is actually from the Apocriticus, book 2, chapter 12 of Macarius Magnes. This was translated by T.W.Crafer, and is online here.

Hoffmann's book is a curious one, which I discussed here a number of years ago (see the link for details of it).

Hoffmann didn't understand the passage, as a footnote he added made plain. Crafer translated it: "But he with bitterness, and with very grim look, bent forward and declared to us yet more savagely that the Evangelists were inventors and not historians of the events concerning Jesus." (p. 38)

Please treat any 'translations' by Hoffmann cautiously. His Porphyry translated only those fragments of the work which existed in English. The remainder, around half of the total, he left untranslated. We may form our own opinions as to the reason for this! His book really does give a good idea, tho, of the impact of Porphyry's book on the reader, this passage aside.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Jeffrey Gibson · 02-28-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Opinion

From another website posted by another forum poster he shows it just as his criticism not translation.

"Pagan historian Porphyry wrote another critique of Christian beliefs "Against the Christians", including such criticism such as :

"The evangelists were fiction writers-- not observers or eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus. Each of the four contradicts the other in writing his account of the events of his suffering and crucifixion"

The quotation is actually from the Apocriticus, book 2, chapter 12 of Macarius Magnes. This was translated by T.W.Crafer, and is online here.

Yes, I know. But Pete didn't -- even though its source is stated on the page he cribbed his quote from.

So here's another instance of Pete's famous inability to read texts critically and to grasp what they actually say.

Jeffrey

Roger Pearse · 02-28-2009, 12:45 PM

Sorry Jeffrey, I didn't realise that you were on the case.

LogicandReason · 02-28-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The quotation is actually from the Apocriticus, book 2, chapter 12 of Macarius Magnes. This was translated by T.W.Crafer, and is online here.

This web link it to one of Roger's websites, so trusting it is also the same as trusting Roger. I wouldn't.

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02-28-2009, 09:16 AM	#303
Opinion Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: United States Posts: 88	And since I can read Spanish. The Spanish one's match the English one's as well. 2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997) Porque cuando os dimos a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no seguimos fábulas ingeniosamente inventadas, sino que fuimos testigos oculares de su majestad. 2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005) Porque cuando les dimos a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no seguimos fábulas ingeniosamente inventadas, sino que fuimos testigos oculares de Su majestad. 2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909) Porque no os hemos dado á conocer la potencia y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, siguiendo fábulas por arte compuestas; sino como habiendo con nuestros propios ojos visto su majestad. 2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569) Porque nosotros no os hemos dado a conocer la potencia y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesús, el Cristo, siguiendo fábulas por arte compuestas; sino como habiendo visto con nuestros propios ojos su majestad. 2 Pedro 1:16 Spanish: Modern Porque os hemos dado a conocer el poder y la venida de nuestro Señor Jesucristo, no siguiendo fábulas artificiosas, sino porque fuimos testigos oculares de su majestad.

02-28-2009, 12:45 PM	#309
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Sorry Jeffrey, I didn't realise that you were on the case.

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