Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 02-16-2012, 02:29 PM

Hi stephan,

Thanks for these good clues.

Note the letter of Claudius is an edict and is a clear response to a petition by the people of Alexandria:

Quote:

"Lucius Aemelius Rectus announces: Seeing that all the populace, owing to its numbers, was unable to be present at the reading of the most sacred and most beneficent letter to the City, I have deemed it necessary to display the letter publicly in order that reading it one by one you may admire the greatness of our God Caesar and you may feel gratitude for his goodwill towards the city. Year 2 of Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Imperator, 14th of Neos Sebastos."

"Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Imperator, Pontifex Maximus, Holder of the Tribunician Power, Consul Designate, to the City of the Alexandrians, greeting.

Tiberius Claudius Barbillus, Apollonius son of Artemidorus, Chaeremon son of Leonidas, Marcus Julius Asklepiades, Gaius Julius Dionysios, Tiberius Claudius Phanias, Pasion son of Potamon, Dionysios son of Sabbion, Tiberius Claudius Archibius, Apollonius son of Ariston, Gaius Julius Apollonius, Hermaiskos son of Apollonius,

Quote:

your ambassadors, having delivered to me the decree, discoursed at length concerning the city, directing my attention to your goodwill towards us, which, from long ago, you may be sure, had been stored up to your advantage in my memory; for you are by nature reverent towards the Augusti,

as I know from many proofs, and in particular have taken a warm interest in my house, warmly reciprocated, of which fact (to mention the last instance, passing over the others) the supreme witness is my brother Germanicus addressing you in words more clearly stamped as his own.

It was obviously read out loud and posted around the city.

I think we have to separate out such edicts that really only emperors had the power to produce from letters from individuals like Paul with no known means of subsistence. (How much could a vagabond tent-maker make annually?).

We can hypothesize that Paul worked for the Emperor and therefore got to give edicts to the Jewish churches, but I think we need more evidence for that. The simpler hypothesis is just that the epistles to the churches were literary conventions. At least for the moment.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't know what the solution is. The problem of having letters addressed to communities is profound. I think you might have overlooked an example or typology in your initial list. Emperors typically sent epistles to communities of people. Claudius's letters to the Alexandrians comes to mind (I can only think of examples involving Alexandria - Constantine too). I rarely peddle my own pet theory but I can't help but think that the ONLY model which makes any sense is that the apostle is 'like' an Emperor.

Why then to these communities?

Well you have to take into account the divergent list of epistles in the Marcionite canon. But my guess is that the apostle had some sort of authority to deal with this community.

But what was this community called? The letters never use the term Christian. So who or what were 'they' in the letters. Notice the use of the term 'Jew' in Romans:

Quote:

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

This has always struck me as odd. The Marcionites 'retained' this line but how could this have fit into their supposedly 'anti-Jewish' agenda? The only answer I can come up with is that the Marcionites saw themselves as the 'new Judaism' because this was the religion of Elisha ben Abuyah. Of course this is for another time but for the moment at least the idea that the Jews were forcibly converted to this new religion helps explain why the epistles are addressed to communities rather than individuals.

The Corinthians address too presumes that there are members of the community who are traditional Jews. Notice the 'wise' (= hakhim), wisdom and the like. The material only makes sense if the community has individuals who want to GO BACK to traditional Judaism. Not 'Christians' who want to go back to Judaism. But Jews who are resisting the effort to impose this new cultus on them through this figure 'the apostle' an agent for the Imperial government.

The proof that the Jews of the Common Era were resisting some kind of Imperial tampering with their religion is clearest from the surviving Birkat HaMinim http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...3_0_02999.html

Many here know that according to my presuppositions the letters were written after the destruction of the temple not before. The gospel had already been published by the apostle himself. Are the people being addressed Jews who had been forcibly converted to this new religion recently invented by 'the apostle' in order to fill the vacuum in Judaism now that the temple had been destroyed and the people subjugated and forced to endue a tax?

When you start thinking about the Marcionites and their 'epistle to the Alexandrians' (deleted or renamed by the orthodox) the idea that the community were Jews and the apostle a figure who was officially sanctioned to be the head of this ethnos becomes a working possibility.

The Marcionites did not accept Acts or its claims about the identity of Paul (sorry about having to state the obvious).

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 02:43 PM

No my theory - as state in my book - is that the writings of the apostle were associated with Marcus Julius Agrippa, legitimate authority over the Jewish community especially in Alexandria (cf. Philo's Flaccus). In other words Agrippa was fulfilling the role later ascribed to an ethnarch and of course much more. Notice that in both Flaccus and Caius Agrippa is spokesperson for the Jewish community. In other words, the Emperor would not typically address the Jews directly but through his intermediary. Interestingly Christ is similarly identified in the letters themselves.

Quote:

"Who [God the Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature . . . all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fulness should dwell; And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven". (Colossians 1:13-20)

A literary convention assumes a fictitious production right from the start. I think this is a leap too far. Falsification follows success. I can think of no examples of something developed from falsehoods right out of the gate. Even the Republican party is the party of Lincoln :notworthy:

Any notion that Christianity was made up from make believe right at the start is unworkable. Christianity succeeded because on some level it was real. It addressed real needs of real people (the Jews). To argue that a bunch of conspirators somehow fooled the world right from the start is 'mountainman light' and any mountainman is toxic overkill.

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 02:53 PM

The question you raise is very good (even if you go off into mountainland afterwards). I defy anyone to explain the addresses to communities outsider of official correspondence.

mountainman · 02-16-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

We can hypothesize that Paul worked for the Emperor and therefore got to give edicts to the Jewish churches, but I think we need more evidence for that. The simpler hypothesis is just that the epistles to the churches were literary conventions. At least for the moment.

Hi Philosopher Jay,

There may be examples of letters written to communities in the letters of Apollonius, such as .... An Unpublished Letter of Apollonius of Tyana to the Sardians - Robert J. Penella; Harvard Studies in Classical Philology; Vol. 79, (1975), pp. 305-311

Best wishes

Pete

Toto · 02-16-2012, 03:25 PM

Most of Apollonius's letters appear to be addressed to individuals:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/eoa/eoa01.htm

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 03:54 PM

again all the authentic epistles of the canon are directed at communities. Philemon is fake IMO

mountainman · 02-16-2012, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Most of Apollonius's letters appear to be addressed to individuals:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/eoa/eoa01.htm

Perhaps a third appear addressed to communities and/or groups in contrast to individuals.

It is notable that some letters are to the priests of "Pagan Churches" (bolded).
But everyone knew the location and existence of many "pagan churches" (i.e. temples).
The question here really points to the absence of any letter to the House-Church at Dura-Europos.
But then again, the "house-church" at Dura may not have been operative in the 1st century.

XI.—To the Chief Councillors of Caesarea.
XII.—To the Chief Councillors of Seleucia.
XIII.—To the same Persons.
XXIV.—To the Presidents of the Olympic Games and to the Elians.
XXV.—To the Peloponnesians.

XXVI.—To the Priests in Olympia.
XXVII.—To the Priests in Delphi.

XXX.—To the Roman Quaestors.
XXXI.—To the Procurators of Asia.
XXXII.—To the Scribes of the Ephesians.
XXXIII.—To the Milesians.
XXXIV.—To the Wise Men in the Museum.
XXXVIII.—To the People of Sardis.
XXXIX.—To the same People.
XL.—To the same People.
XLI.—To the same People.
XLII.—To the Platonic Thinkers.
XLVII.—To the Senate and People of Tyana.
LIV.—Apollonius, to the Censors of Rome.
LVI.—To the People of Sardis.
LVII.—To certain learned Publicists.
LXIII.—Apollonius To The Ephors And To The Lacedaemonians.
LXIV.—To the Same.
LXV.—To Those of the Ephesians who frequented the Temple of Artemis.
LXVI.—To the same Persons.
LXVII.—To the same Persons.
LXVIII.—To the Milesians.
LXIX.—To The Trallians.
LXX.—To the people of Sais.
LXXI.—To the Ionians.
LXXIV.—To the Stoics.
LXXV.—To the people of Sardis.
LXXVI.—To the same Persons.

Chili · 02-16-2012, 05:00 PM

Sure, and I can just see it happen (from the pulpit is read by the leader of the pack):

Dear Galatian Friends, you guys are all bewitched and should not even be here, because just by coming here to express your sin-full-ness you have taken upon yourself the yoke of slavery a second time and so have fallen from God's faver. IOW Herod got the best of you and you are going to die for sure.

Signed: Paul, who once was kind of like to you too.

Or to the 'Roman sinners':

Dearest happy fellow sinners, just here to say that the laws of Moses are only given to get us lost, and so the more you sin the better. To this end be it clear to you that that silly idea of righteousness is only there to make us sinners known. . . . for don't you know: the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only, and so the more you sin the better.

Signed: Paul, the ex cheerfull persecuter of Christians just draining religion for what it was worth, and here I am now, and good luck to you.

Sheshbazzar · 02-16-2012, 05:04 PM

Damn Chili! that was good!

stephan huller · 02-16-2012, 05:38 PM

the epistles of paul are different because they're not addressed to all of the residents of the city but I select ethnos

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02-16-2012, 02:53 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The question you raise is very good (even if you go off into mountainland afterwards). I defy anyone to explain the addresses to communities outsider of official correspondence.

02-16-2012, 03:25 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Most of Apollonius's letters appear to be addressed to individuals: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/eoa/eoa01.htm

02-16-2012, 03:54 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	again all the authentic epistles of the canon are directed at communities. Philemon is fake IMO

02-16-2012, 05:00 PM	#18
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Sure, and I can just see it happen (from the pulpit is read by the leader of the pack): Dear Galatian Friends, you guys are all bewitched and should not even be here, because just by coming here to express your sin-full-ness you have taken upon yourself the yoke of slavery a second time and so have fallen from God's faver. IOW Herod got the best of you and you are going to die for sure. Signed: Paul, who once was kind of like to you too. Or to the 'Roman sinners': Dearest happy fellow sinners, just here to say that the laws of Moses are only given to get us lost, and so the more you sin the better. To this end be it clear to you that that silly idea of righteousness is only there to make us sinners known. . . . for don't you know: the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only, and so the more you sin the better. Signed: Paul, the ex cheerfull persecuter of Christians just draining religion for what it was worth, and here I am now, and good luck to you.

02-16-2012, 05:04 PM	#19
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Damn Chili! that was good!

02-16-2012, 05:38 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	the epistles of paul are different because they're not addressed to all of the residents of the city but I select ethnos

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