Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 11-22-2006, 02:26 PM

The story of Abraham and Isaac when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his Son, is similar to what is called 'initiation'. God wanted to see if Abraham really trusted Him and would do anything for Him. Abraham passed his 'initiation with flying colours.

redhen · 11-22-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The story of Abraham and Isaac when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his Son, is similar to what is called 'initiation'. God wanted to see if Abraham really trusted Him and would do anything for Him. Abraham passed his 'initiation with flying colours.

The same way that God tortured Job and killed his family, just to prove a point to Satan.

nice.

aa5874 · 11-22-2006, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The story of Abraham and Isaac when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his Son, is similar to what is called 'initiation'. God wanted to see if Abraham really trusted Him and would do anything for Him. Abraham passed his 'initiation with flying colours.

And as I have pointed out already, this story is very disturbing because it can actually lead to destructive behaviour of believers in Gods.

If someone claims God told them to their kill their children and prepares to kill them, just like Abraham, if no angel stops that person, all the children will be dead. See Genesis 22, for this devastating story, this chapter should be banned from religious circles.

Doug Shaver · 11-23-2006, 06:56 AM

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Originally Posted by 4 billion

not open to interpretation

OK, if you say so.

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 02:02 PM

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Originally Posted by The Evil One

It is, because it's his own son, and his only son: it's not just some spare. Thus it's a big sacrifice and therefore impressive and a token of Abraham's great faith. Good guy, that Abraham. .

As if to disprove your point, the narrative makes sure to introduce Ishmael into the story, Abraham's other son. So ironically Abraham did have a spare.

Like I say, the story is incoherent if you assume that God really wants Abraham to obey such an obviously immoral and odious command.

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 02:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Anat

Sacrificing a child for the 'greater good' as it was understood was normal then and is still normal today. People sacrificed children for better productivity of their fields or for success at war or whatever reason they found compelling enough (and with the need to avoid cognitive dissonance they then had to justify the cause to themselves and become ever fanatical in their belief). These days, every parent that encourages a child into a stint in the military on grounds of patriotism, every parent that expresses pride in their child's participation in a military effort on grounds of patriotism is experiencing exactly the same psychological phenomenon of the child sacrificers of the past.

As I said, what makes Abraham's act of child sacrifice different is that he was doing it for no purpose whatsoever other than fulfilling a divine commandment. In fact, had the sacrifice gone through, he would have negated the fulfillment of the divine promise that had been (as far as a reader can tell) motivating him all along. That he was willing to obey God at the expense of all the future he had. He was willing to turn the two-sided deal God had offered him into a one-sided deal, where he is loyal to God while getting nothing in return.

This is incoherent morally. He was willing to kill his own son (who is a person and not his to give), and thus risk his "future" as a big shot of some kind, apparently posthumously. In short he put glory about love, which seems dubious to any normal person.

By the way, according to the author of Hebrews, Abraham was convinced that God would resurrect Isaac, thus insuring the promise. The "test," according to that author, was, was Abraham willing to cut his son's own throat (which is what sacrifice entails). He apparently was. I fail to see how any normal person, much less God, would find that a quality worthy of praise.

Thus my conclusion that Abraham has actually failed the test.

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 02:13 PM

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Originally Posted by The Evil One

No, she's saying that THE HUMAN AUTHORS OF THE OT wouldn't have been bothered by it. Your interpretation is utterly dependent on the Biblical authors and all their readers sharing your personal disgust towards the sacrifice that Abraham is willing to carry out. However, every indication we have on the matter is that the Bible authors, their audience, and believers through the ages have considered Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac to be wholly laudable and the mark of a truly great and wonderful faith..

But the Jews WERE disgusted with child sacrifice, and its anathema in the Bible. God rails against it.

You seem to have confused the authors of Genesis, with the characters in the narrative. There is no doubt whatsoever that the authors of Genesis would have found child sacrifice odious, not to mention idolatrous.

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 02:19 PM

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Originally Posted by doubtingt

I agree, because the culture of faith in which they were couched was one which equated morality with blind and unquestioned obedience to authority, even if it means sacrificing oneself or personal feelings of empathy for others. .

Then why Chapter 18 where Abraham specifically and explicitly questions God's plan to destroy Sodom, and even questions God's morality.

"Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?""

This doesn't sound like blind faith to me. It sounds like God baited Abraham into speaking up, and Abraham did -- to God's pleasure! Abraham is developing a conscience of morality that is independent of God's commands -- if only he had exercised it in Chapter 22!

aa5874 · 11-27-2006, 02:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Gamera

Like I say, the story is incoherent if you assume that God really wants Abraham to obey such an obviously immoral and odious command.

The story is about Abraham's faith in God, and his willingness to follow any order from God.

See Genesis 22:15-17, 'And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out from heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing and have not witheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven......

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The story is about Abraham's faith in God, and his willingness to follow any order from God.

See Genesis 22:15-17, 'And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out from heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing and have not witheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven......

But it wasn't his only son. Ismael was his son too.

So it's as if God is going along with Abraham's delusion about himself and has moved on to Plan B, which is the Law. Abraham has learned all he can learn. He can learn no more. He can't evolve a loving conscience beyond what he has. So it's time for God to move on.

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11-22-2006, 02:26 PM	#101
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	The story of Abraham and Isaac when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his Son, is similar to what is called 'initiation'. God wanted to see if Abraham really trusted Him and would do anything for Him. Abraham passed his 'initiation with flying colours.

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