Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-20-2008, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."

The Tacitus report is over a thousand years too late for Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman to use:

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"The original MSS. containing the "Annals of Tacitus" were "discovered" in the fifteenth century. Their existence cannot be traced back further than that time. And as it was an age of imposture, some persons are disposed to believe that not only portions of the Annals, but the whole work, was forged at that time. Mr. J. W. Ross, in an elaborate work published in London some years ago, contended that the Annals were forged by Poggio Bracciolini, their professed discoverer. At the time of Bracciolini the temptation was great to palm off literary forgeries, especially of the chief writers of antiquity, on account of the Popes, in their efforts to revive learning, giving money rewards and indulgences to those who should procure MS. copies of any of the ancient Greek or Roman authors. Manuscripts turned up as if by magic, in every direction; from libraries of monasteries, obscure as well as famous; the most out-of-the-way places,—the bottom of exhausted wells, besmeared by snails, as the History of Velleius Paterculus, or from garrets, where they had been contending with cobwebs and dust, as the poems of Catullus."

David W. Heley

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

schilling.klaus · 02-20-2008, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Christus in Tacitus seems to be a different person.

The passage in Tacitus is a fraudulent forgery, as already known by Polydore Hochart, over 100 years ago.

Klaus Schilling

aa5874 · 02-20-2008, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Christus in Tacitus seems to be a different person.

The passage in Tacitus is a fraudulent forgery, as already known by Polydore Hochart, over 100 years ago.

Klaus Schilling

Even if the passage inTacitus is a forgery, Ehrman's statement is still mis-leading. The passage does not mention Jesus.

andrewcriddle · 02-20-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I can't locate an exact quote, but Ehrman does not support the idea that the gospels are an accurate reflection of history, but believes that there is an actual millenial Jewish prophet that the stories were based on. He does not have an interest in challenging the existence of a historical Jesus.

quoted in wikipedia

Quote:

Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."

But, Ehrman statement is mis-leading. Tacitus never mentioned Jesus of Nazareth, he never mentioned how Christus died, where in Judaea Christus died, the year that Christus was killed, or the age of Christus when he died.

Pontius Pilate was only governor in Judea during (part) of the reign of Tiberius, hence if Christ was killed by order of Pontius Pilate he was killed during the reign of Tiberius.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 02-20-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, Ehrman statement is mis-leading. Tacitus never mentioned Jesus of Nazareth, he never mentioned how Christus died, where in Judaea Christus died, the year that Christus was killed, or the age of Christus when he died.

Pontius Pilate was only governor in Judea during (part) of the reign of Tiberius, hence if Christ was killed by order of Pontius Pilate he was killed during the reign of Tiberius.

Andrew Criddle

You are not making much sense. If Jesus of Nazareth, assuming he existed, was crucified 35 CE, and Christus was killed 27 CE, then it would be obvious that Christus was not Jesus.

If Christus was 25 years old, was beheaded at the Dead Sea and his mother's name Yram, then it would be obvious that Christus was not Jesus of Nazareth.

And all these things could have happened during the reign of Tiberius by order of Pilate.

And the word "Christ" means "the anointed or anointed with oil" and the word "the anointed", in Hebrew, was used hundreds of years before Jesus of Nazareth.

"I am the Anointed one" can be "I am Christus" or "I am the Christ."

It is foolhardy to think that anywhere the word "Christ" appears that it must mean Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

squiz · 02-25-2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I can't locate an exact quote, but Ehrman does not support the idea that the gospels are an accurate reflection of history, but believes that there is an actual millenial Jewish prophet that the stories were based on. He does not have an interest in challenging the existence of a historical Jesus.

quoted in wikipedia

Quote:

Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."

There is a big difference between not supporting an idea and saying that it is nonsense. This is why I would like to see if this is a quotation or just an interpolation.

No Robots · 02-26-2008, 08:26 AM

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Originally Posted by squiz

This is why I would like to see if this is a quotation or just an interpolation.

Did you think to just google the phrase? It would lead you here.

Toto · 02-26-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

This is why I would like to see if this is a quotation or just an interpolation.

Did you think to just google the phrase? It would lead you here.

That is the quote on Tacitus. We are looking for a citation to Ehrman saying that the mythicist hypothesis is nonsense, or words to that effect.

I don't recall that he ever said anything that definitive.

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