RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
RED DAVE

Babylon Sister

I have personally excavated bone and stone tools that were 3000 years older than that from a level in a site where that level was apparently a single seasonal occupation by fewer than 10 people.

If we are looking in the wrong place for the wrong things, what places should we look at and what do you think we should be looking for?

aside: That's a pretty precise date. Do you know the month and day as well?

A couple of reasons (among others): a) there is nothing there to find or b) we will find it when you tell us where to look and what to look for. You are the messiah after all. You should know.

Since we don't know what manna was or if it even existed, what chemicals should we be looking for? The bible says that the people ground it up and baked it (Num. 11:18). If they ate it, they would eliminate it and there would be poo. Lots and lots of poo judging by the number of people on the trip. Or did the manna poo vanish as mysteriously as pre-baked manna was said to appear?

Or maybe it was never there to begin with.

Larsguy47

Wow, that's fascinating. The Jews used a lot of metal, like gold. They might have used water bags made out of skins in addition to using wooden utensils. Have you found any gold utensils? Or skin water bags? Or remains of any tents? You know, things the Jews might have left behind?

I donno. Maybe some gold statues or something. Some golden calves they might have abandoned. Anything gold?


Actually yes. Abraham came into Egypt on the night of the full moon and that's the night the Jews left 430 years later. So the day they actually left Egypt was Nisan 15, 1386 BCE, between Midnight and morning.

I don't know. I think you might be right. The Bible says the Jews stripped the Jews of their gold. A solid gold statue commissioned by some king that apparently had already been cast was sent as just gold plating over wood. The king was upset. But the original golden statues might have went out with the Jews. So there should have been a lot of gold items that they dropped if they had that much gold. But I haven't hear of any gold being found.

Exactly. We may be looking at some higher concentrations of some trace mineral or substance in the manna that has survived but we are not appreciating that.



I think that's a reasonable assumption, but maybe they didn't. Their clothes didn't wear out. Certainly when they ate the quail there would be excrement. Maybe it was a completely absorbed substance and there was no remains of it in the stool or urine. Hadn't thought of that!

With that special diet, we haven't established that they would have had normal stool. Maybe they didn't at all. Like being on a liquid diet in the hospital.

Maybe it was the perfect food and it was entirely absorbed. Sort of like being on an IV line in the hospital. But tell me, you say you found bone tools and stone tools in your excavations. Have you found ancient stool datable to 3000 years ago? How would that be detected since I thought stool biodegrades rather quickly?

Well, we know they were there. We're just wondering why they didn't have the usual stool remains that are found by archaeologists. So tell me, where are the stool samples from all these cities and areas where there actually was population being kept? I'd like to read about stool levels in other populated areas that confirm nomadic life. Thanks.

LG47

Johann_Kaspar

Of course it is easier to repeat without end a stupid anthem than to do some homework. You are disqualifying yourself.

Evidence there is. :angel:

xaxxat

Feel free to show us your evidence...

Babylon Sister

My area of specialization is not the Middle East. It is the Northern Plains and the Great Basin. Gold was not used in these areas. I have not found skin or fabric in the Northern Plains because the soils here don't tend to preserve that material. I have however, found woven material in excavations in the Great Basin.

Since the Jews were not in either of these areas, I have not found anything they may have left behind.

What's with the gold obsession? Then as now, gold is far too precious to "abandon".

Think about the process necessary to fashion a "golden calf". What do you need to melt gold? Do you think nomads wandering around the desert had the equipment to smelt gold? What did they use to make a fire hot enough to melt gold? Not a lot of wood or coal in that desert. Any metal smelting process leaves evidence. Distinct and easily recognizable evidence.

Chapter and verse?

I can imagine that gold was a precious and rare commodity, especially for wandering nomads. It would have been guarded with a great deal of care. I doubt they had so much gold that they were able or willing to let any of it go unaccounted for. That said, regardless of the precautions, it would not be unusual for a few small gold objects to be lost in all that wandering around. A few, not a lot.

So we should just take a bunch of random chemical samples and whatever trace minerals come out with the highest concentrations is evidence of manna? What are we going to test? The soil? The plants? The air? You can't look for a needle in a haystack if you don't know where the haystack is.

They were human. They took a dump now and then. It's part of the deal. Solid and liquid foods do not get completely absorbed.

As a matter of fact, I have. In cave and rockshelter sites in the Great Basin (very dry environments) human poo has been found stored in the cave or shelter. The diet of the people in the area contained a fairly high percentage of plant seeds and wild grasses. As you may have noticed after you've eaten nuts or unprocessed grains, not all of the seeds or grains are digested. Some remain whole. The theory for the stored poo is something known as the "second harvest". Whole seeds were "harvested" from the poo to be used for food again.

No we don't "know" they were there. The evidence consists of stories from one book. We don't have the "usual stool remains" because there was no one to leave any.

While there is quite a lot of information on the toilet facilities, habits and waste treatment in Roman and medieval sitesfor example, most of the time you won't hear a lot about the treatment, or non-treatment, of human waste from a lot of archeological sites without reading the literature, the ewww factor being what it is. (In historic sites one of the best things to find is a privy. A goldmine, if you'll pardon the expression, of information.)

Lógos Sokratikós

"Poo. The one reason why your stories are crap."

That would make a nice bumper sticker! :devil1:

Larsguy47

Quite fascinating. Thanks for sharing this!!

The Jews left the night of Passover, on the 15th of Nisan (Numbers 33:3), the night of the Full Moon, which is said to be exactly the very day from 430 years earlier when Abraham first stayed in Egypt, therefore, he must have entered Egypt on the day of the Full Moon.

Exodus 12:29 And it came about that at midnight Jehovah struck every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Phar´aoh sitting on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the prison hole, and every firstborn of beast.

Exodus 12:40 And the dwelling of the sons of Israel, who had dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came about at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, it even came about on this very day that all the armies of Jehovah went out of the land of Egypt. 42 It is a night for observance with regard to Jehovah for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. With regard to Jehovah this night is one for observance on the part of all the sons of Israel throughout their generations.

Numbers 33: And they proceeded to pull away from Ram´e·ses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month.

I know, usually, but if this was bread from heaven, used for sustenance, it might have been a substance that was special and fully absorbable, like an IV fluid, a specialized food. Christ is compared to manna as well, "bread from heaven" so there may have been some ritualistic attachment to the manna and as part of that experience it was never excreted. But if some of it was, the excrement may have biodegraded in a unique way as well. So a lot of "ifs"...



Fascinating. So not the stool itself but undigested seeds left in the stool. I don't think there were any seeds in the manna, so undigested seeds aren't a help here. And, of course, this is only found where the seeds are not allowed to sprout, obviously, since at that point even the stool seed evidence would be destroyed once live plants were growing again.

True. We have a "historical" record that can't be confirmed nor disputed by what was left archaeologically. But apparently that's not a huge issue is people were living in tents or used wood for building rather than stones that were allowed to remain and not resued. Thus some cities even mentioned in Egyptian annals have not a trace now archaeologically.

Thanks, again, for more details about the stool and what is sought after. By the way, could you share what you've found in the way of grave sites, surviving corpses? I understand some buried above the ground. I believe the Jews buried in the ground. Thanks. And I can see, looking for evidence of the past is indeed like a "treasure hunt" in more ways than one. Sometimes you actually find a real treature and other times just a treasure of information.


LG47:redface:

Gullwind

Don't jump to conclusions. Just because we have no evidence obviously doesn't mean they weren't there...

Larsguy47

Right. The Jews were not messy folks like the others around them. "CLEAN" was their middle name!

LG47