Toto

This is strange logic. Do you consider the existence of the Screwtape Letters to be evidence of Satan?

Are you aware of the tradition of "epistolary fiction" in which fiction or essays were written in the form of letters, common in the Roman Empire?

It's not pure speculation. It's based on the standard narrative of Christian history. What part do you find to be questionable?

My theory isn't that they died out. I don't think that they existed to start with. But if they did, we have no evidence of their existence outside of other Christian writings referring to Paul's letters.

When you treat Revelation as history, you've got some serious problems. Have you read that book???

Which writings refer to an actual church before the fourth century?

If there were thousands of people, how did they fly under the radar and avoid detection by the Roman authorities at a time when such gatherings were illegal? Where are you getting this?

I think you need to start citing authorities, not just your own idiosyncratic interpretation of things.

aa5874

Isn't that amusing??? Have you ever heard--- "Return to Sender--Address Unknown---No Such Number--No such Phone".

The Pauline Epistles are historically bogus--A Pack of Lies.

There is NO credible corroborative evidence whatsoever that any Pauline letter was actually received or read in any Church.

The Pauline writer claimed he was a Hebrew of Hebrews, of the tribe of Benjamin and a Pharisee. See Romans 11.1 and Philippians 3.5

If Jesus, born of the seed of David, a Jew, was Crucified by the Romans then it is just a Big massive LOAD of BS that Paul a Jew and Pharisee would have been "all over" the Roman Empire, even in Rome and Corinth, shortly AFTER the Crucifixion and Burial telling Citizens of the Roman Empire that the Crucified Buried Jew was the Son of God, the Lord, Savior and Messiah and that EVERY KNEE should BOW to the name of a Crucified JEW.

Paul a Jew and a Pharisee would most likely have been in Hiding to escape Death--it would be Expected that the Romans would have attempted to Execute him and Eradicate the supposed followers of Jesus.

If Jesus was CRUCIFIED by the Romans and then Buried then Paul would have propagated a Massive lie that he SAW Jesus ALIVE.

How in the world could Paul a JEW physically go to Rome and claimed a Jew that was Crucified by the Romans and was Buried is still ALIVE and is to be Worshiped as a God???

It is clear. The Pauline letters are historically bogus--A pack of Lies.

They were NOT written in the 1st century. It was the Memoirs of the Apostles that were read in the Churches up to the mid 2nd century--See First Apology by Justin.

No Texts of the Pauline writings have been recovered and dated to the 1st century and before c 68 CE.

The writings of Justin Maryr did NOT mention the Activities of the Apostles or the Pauline letters and this is compatible with the recovered dated Texts and Non-Apologetic sources.

outhouse

this is correct early on in the movement. Pauls letters were not important, nor did he mean them to ever be scripture. he just didnt like some of the issues going on in these houses he had set up.

The later letters not attributed to paul were to soften up his stance, which was often over zealous, as his letters were viewed as having a impact.



we do know these houses grew though, and by the second century they still didnt ressemble a typical church in any way, but you would have had larger gatherings

outhouse

your correct again.



the movement was not large in pauls time, in any way shape or form


and this goes to how scholars know justin had learned from paul, but they will also state justin didnt always agree with paul either, and had his own ideas, since nothing at that time was written in stone

the movement was small, and justin did know pauls work, and its evident in his work

Toto

We're still waiting for some indication that this is the case, outside of wikipedia.

TedM

Can you show me an example of a such a letter written to a non-existing group of people about something that would be very important to them if they had existed? Further, can you show me such an example that claims to be written by the source of that very important information -- ie the founder of the religion, political group, government entity, etc.? It shouldn't be hard to do Toto if you are right because there are many things that are important to people, and as you just claimed these kinds of writings were 'common'. I challenge you to come up with ONE.




I guess I need to ask you when you think Ignatius, 1 clement, and Revelation were written? Also, I'd point out that references to Paul's letters is irrelevant to whether those churches existed at time they were written. We are talking about their testament to the existence of the early believers in those areas, and when it started--not whether they reference Paul's letters.

You'll agree that the churches came into existence at some point, right? When do you think that was and do you think letters to them pre-dated that point? If so, I expect you to be able to come up with evidence to support that in answer to the first question in this post.



no need to be cute. You know I'm talking about the church as in the group of believers.


What evidence do you have that they flew under the radar? The many early works attesting to persecution suggests there was no flying under the radar.

outhouse

oral tradition was much more prevelant, than any written scripture in these illiterate communities.

Justin was a learned man, whether you like it or not.

he was litterate

people that were educated were far and few between, and would have survived easier then most peasants



Do you not understand the early christian movement at all?

they took care of each other, a litterate important person like this would have been taken care of in every place he went, the communities would have helped him with all their ability.

remember jesus was said to travel pennyless and probably lived better then he did working, from healing and generosity.


do you know that justin didnt heal? or would that have just been a jewisg trait?? No, we know paul healed for dinner scraps like jesus, no reason to think justin didnt

aa5874

What??? You fabricate your own history. You can't even tell people what is written in the stories of Paul.

According to Acts, in Saul/Paul time there were thousands of converts.

Acts 21:20 KJVYou are a story teller. Everyday it is another invention. You are a face palm story teller.

Duvduv

When you say "Justin," you mean the author of the Apology.....but who knows who that was? And he wasn't all that smart. The Apology is rather poorly written and his Dialogue is merely a Monologue, though I think the two were written by different people.
One can know hardly anything about "Justin" from the Apology. He doesn't even say a word about where his alleged communities are, who the leaders and predecessors are, or anything about his Old Man.

Toto

Nice job trying to shift the burden of proof. Here's the link to Ancient Epistolary Fictions: The Letter in Greek Literature (or via: amazon.co.uk) if the Screwtape Letters are not enough of an indication that letters are not proof of the existence of the subject matter.

Given that we know that human capacity for fictionalized story telling is virtually infinite, why should these alleged letters of Paul be treated as factual?



Ignatius - mostly later forgeries. 1 Clement - who knows? Revelation has an earlier stratum, but how does that support you?

No, we are talking about Paul's letters here. Do you have some indication that these early believers were followers of Paul?

No, I don't agree that these churches ever existed, or that Paul's epistles are any proof of their existence, or were ever meant to be sent to them.

What is your evidence to the contrary?

There is no evidence of Christians, or persecution, in the first century. There is no evidence of gatherings of hundreds or thousands of Christians. There are later stories of individual martyrs, mostly unreliable.

You are the one making these assertions - cite some actual evidence.