Gullwind

Of course, they had been drifting out of sight of land for at least two weeks, so they were essentially completely lost. Which would you do, spend hours searching through your charts trying to find a match, or get out and ask?

I seriously doubt every ship had charts of the entire Med. They would have the charts for the areas they would expect to go.

One more reason why the sailors in Acts 28 may have asked the locals for their location.

Naphtali Jones

Take the whole quote and just delete the parts you don't want. Make sure you keep the (/Quote) part at the beginning and the end.

noah

Lee, it would be really helpful if you read the posts you are going to respond to.

Did you not see this part of my post:

At all period in Roman history supplementary material is available from a variety of other sources, from Greek writers, from Latin and also Greek inscriptions, from early material embedded in the writings of several of the church fathers (Jerome and Augustine), from inscriptions, from coins, brickstamps with the Imperial names, and archaeological digs as at Pompeii. Sifting through mountains of such information, one finds the account of what went on in the Roman world becoming understandable, but one should remember that in terms of what is required for the study of modern historical epoches (e.g. Czarist Russia, the French Revolution, the American Civil War), the historical accounts of Rome are totally deficient. In this sense, we have in Roman History a kind of history in which every sliver of pertinent information is studied and restudied with the greatest attention, a discipline in which we cannot afford to miss anything. On the other hand, in the study of the history of recent times, the confronting problem is one of selection, which is necessary in order to make sense out of files far greater than any historian can read in a lifetime.

http://community.middlebury.edu/~ha...Historians.html


Remember this Lee? It shows the Romans were actually keeping track of the seismological events around Pompeii during the period before the eruption:

Geologic Processes

Vesuvius is lying on a fault in Italy that is caused by the subduction of the African Plate beneath the Eurasian Plate. As a result, the Meditteranean Sea is growing smaller and the Appenine Mountains are being uplifted. Vesuvius has formed on a fracture vent, possibly under the waters of the Bay of Naples. It is about 10,000 years old, a very young volcano within the scheme of geologic time. In the years proceeding the eruption in A.D. 79, Romans had recorded a series of earthquakes. Little did they realize what destruction was about to happen. Since the mountain had been dormant for centuries and covered in vegetation, its dangers lay sleepiing beneath a placid surface.

http://www.earlham.edu/~karlajo/jkgeo.htm

Pliny heard about it. All the Romans knew it had happened

Pliny and his young nephew and ward, Pliny the Younger, were present at the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius. Pliny the Elder, eager to gather first-hand scientific information, and to help friends out of danger, sailed out to the base of the volcano in a Roman warship. His nephew stayed behind in Misenum, a town across the bay from the doomed city of Pompeii. Years later, Pliny the Younger described the scene in a letter:

The cloud was shaped like an umbrella pine, with a long trunk that branched at the top. It was so remarkable, my uncle wanted to study it closer. He ordered a boat to be prepared. Fearlessly, he headed across the bay, straight for danger, all the while making notes of the movements and shapes of the clouds. Soon, ashes were falling, hot and dense. Next came pumice stones, black and scorched by fire. He came ashore near his friend's villa and — hoping to calm him by his own composure — my uncle asked to bathe and rest.

Soon the courtyard outside his room filled with ash. The buildings swayed with heavy tremors. The sky turned blacker than night. Then flames and sulfur fumes sent everyone into flight. He asked for water, then stood up and suddenly collapsed; his breath choked by the thickening fog. Day light came three days later.

Pliny the Elder died of asphyxiation from volcanic ash, sharing the same fate as thousands of Roman citizens that day.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/voices/voices1d.html

A man by the name of Pliny the Younger wrote an account of this eruption as he viewed Vesuvius from Naples to the northwest of the volcanic mountain. His account was probably the first one ever written. His uncle, Pliny the Elder, died in the second eruption that day.

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/.../Content7.html

People are studying the ruins from this eruption:

Studying the ruins that were preserved, due to this ancient eruption, not only provides insights into ancient Roman history and architecture, but is also provides insights into the modern day dangers that the volcano poses to those now living in its shadow.

And they 're using many contemporary records:

In writing this book, the authors have included excerpts from many contemporary literary accounts of the eruption, such as the eyewitness account recorded by Pliny the Younger. They have also seamlessly interwoven the available historical, archaeologically, literary, and scientific information on the eruption into an enthralling narrative that will fascinate both the general reader, as well as historians.

http://www.largeprintreviews.com/vesuvius79.html

And, of course Lee, you still haven't proven that Tyre sank into the water.

spin

I'm impressed that this thread is still going! Not that there needs to be anything added. Tyre sank into the water. :rolling: And Lot's wife got turned into a pillar of salt as well.


spin

RGD

Lee, like many theists I know, appears incapable of admitting that he was wrong about something. A bit sad, that.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

That's what I was wondering, thanks, I shall look for other examples. And for a another, better, coast question picture!

Regards,
Lee

Gullwind

Is it really worth it? Sailors have been identifying locations from landmarks on coastlines for thousands of years. For most people, its not an extraordinary claim.

Please note, though, that I also said I would need a chart, not just a panoramic picture. Charts for the American coast are available from NOAA, although I don't know if they are available online. Charts for the New Zealand coast may be available from the corresponding Australian or New Zealand authority.

RGD

No, it's not actually worth it. Lee seems to be in denial about his inability to provide any evidence that the Tyre prophecy has been fulfilled. The fact that the city still exists when the prophecy said it wouldn't is the most basic problem he's not dealing with. The rest is smoke, window-dressing, and fluff.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I agree! Mountains would be much more useful than coastlines, in identifying where you are.

Why not a picture, though? My claim (faint though it be, if I can't find a good picture) is that looking at the coast from sea level is not very informative, even with the best of maps.

But we've kind of gotten off track here, maybe we could just agree to disagree, and sail on?

Regards,
Lee

Gullwind

Your claim fails because the picture does not replace the chart. A ship sailing past a coastline has to compare two things in order to determine its position. 1) The coastline it is sailing past, and 2) the chart of that coast.

Since I am not in New Zealand to be able to see the harbor in person, the picture replaces #1, not #2. A navigator still needs something to compare it to in order to determine his location.