Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 03-31-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

No sources, of course.

Good work. The lack of sources is all we need to know.

When I started to take an interest in Mithras, it was astounding how much tripe was in circulation. But all of it, like this, was unreferenced. That's almost a fingerprint; controversial + no-ref = probably tripe.

Even if stuff is referenced, you can't trust it unless you verify it. Yesterday I caught an error in Wikipedia which had made its way into French and German and all over the web, where a supposed quotation from Severian of Gabala was involved. I went to the reference quoted, and it turned out not to be a verbatim quote at all.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto · 03-31-2010, 11:21 AM

There are some sources quoted here (and this might be related to the sources used by Roloff), but I have some trouble following the argument.

Iranian Religions: Mithraism

Quote:

The literary evidence

Keeping in mind the fate of the religion of Mithra in the West and its utter absorption in Christianity, and the similar fate it had, even more severely, under the Sasanian neo-Zoroastrianism and later under Islam, we would naturally expect in Moslem historians a total identification of Mithra with Jesus, the only Messiah allowed in orthodox Islam.

I think he then argues that the stories of Mithra's mother conceiving from Zoroaster's sperm while bathing in the lake gave rise to the Christian story, but it's not clear why the influence didn't run the other way:

Quote:

I believe all students of Iranian religions are familiar with the story of virgins bathing in Lack Hamun where the seed of Zoroaster is preserved for making the chosen virgin pregnant, who is to give birth to the expected Saviour, on the model of which the story of the virgin birth of Jesus from the seed of David was constructed. Although no seed of David is in substance is present at the appearance of the angle [sic] in the Annunciation scene on the 25th of March, Koranic commentators repeat the story that the angel blew in the sleeves of Mary's dress when she came out of the water.

Roger Pearse · 03-31-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are some sources quoted here (and this might be related to the sources used by Roloff), but I have some trouble following the argument.

Iranian Religions: Mithraism

I saw this, some time ago. Unfortunately the "sources" are all very late, mostly Arabic, and not given in such a manner that we can consult them. That is not good news.

aa5874 · 03-31-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

....There are many parallels and presumed influences between the mystery religions and Christianity, but there is more speculation than actual knowledge........

But an early Christian source have confirmed the parallels or influence between Mithraism and Christianity.

Justin Martyr, writing about the middle of the 2nd century did claim that a ritual similar to the Eucharist was practiced by the followers of Mithraism.

This is Justin Martyr on the initiation of the followers of Mithraism

"First Apology" LXVI

Quote:

.... For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done.

For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn...

There is very little doubt that Mithraism had some influence on Christianity. We have proof or evidence from a Christian source of antiquity over 1800 years ago.

Roger Pearse · 04-01-2010, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

....There are many parallels and presumed influences between the mystery religions and Christianity, but there is more speculation than actual knowledge........

But an early Christian source have confirmed the parallels or influence between Mithraism and Christianity.

Justin Martyr, writing about the middle of the 2nd century did claim that a ritual similar to the Eucharist was practiced by the followers of Mithraism.

This is Justin Martyr on the initiation of the followers of Mithraism

"First Apology" LXVI

Quote:

.... For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done.

For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn...

There is very little doubt that Mithraism had some influence on Christianity. We have proof or evidence from a Christian source of antiquity over 1800 years ago.

All we have above is evidence that Christians ca. 180 think that Mithras cultists in Lyons are taking the mick in a ritual. This doesn't take us very far.

It is a fallacy to argue from similarity to connection and then to derivation.

aa5874 · 04-01-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But an early Christian source have confirmed the parallels or influence between Mithraism and Christianity.

Justin Martyr, writing about the middle of the 2nd century did claim that a ritual similar to the Eucharist was practiced by the followers of Mithraism.

This is Justin Martyr on the initiation of the followers of Mithraism

"First Apology" LXVI

There is very little doubt that Mithraism had some influence on Christianity. We have proof or evidence from a Christian source of antiquity over 1800 years ago.

All we have above is evidence that Christians ca. 180 think that Mithras cultists in Lyons are taking the mick in a ritual. This doesn't take us very far.

It is a fallacy to argue from similarity to connection and then to derivation.

But, unless you can show that the Jesus story pre-dated Mithraism, then you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism.

This is Justin Martyr showing similarities in Mithraism with the place of birth of Jesus in "Dialogue with Trypho".

Dialogue with Trypho LXXVIII

Quote:

....But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him.

I have repeated to you," I continued, "what Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave; but for the sake of those who have come with us to-day, I shall again remind you of the passage."

Then I repeated the passage from Isaiah which I have already written, adding that, by means of those words, those who presided over the mysteries of Mithras were stirred up by the devil to say that in a place, called among them a cave, they were initiated by him..

The evidence of antiquity from an apologetic source is showing similarity, and connection, it therefore cannot be a fallacy to argue for derivation.

Roger Pearse · 04-01-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

All we have above is evidence that Christians ca. 180 think that Mithras cultists in Lyons are taking the mick in a ritual. This doesn't take us very far.

It is a fallacy to argue from similarity to connection and then to derivation.

But, unless you can show that the Jesus story pre-dated Mithraism, then you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism.

This involves numerous logical and factual errors.

1. The assumption that Justin's report refers to practises pre-dating Christianity.
2. The assumption that there was any such thing as "Mithraism"
3. The presumption that the cult of Mithras predates Jesus of Nazareth.
3. The non-sequitur that "you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism" if there is worship of Mithras in pre-Christian times; the logic of the sentence seems non-existant.

Quote:

The evidence of antiquity from an apologetic source is showing similarity, and connection, it therefore cannot be a fallacy to argue for derivation.

Non sequitur noted.

Pardon me, but I will ignore now your posts until you demonstrate some ability to read and reason.

aa5874 · 04-01-2010, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, unless you can show that the Jesus story pre-dated Mithraism, then you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism.

This involves numerous logical and factual errors.

1. The assumption that Justin's report refers to practises pre-dating Christianity.
2. The assumption that there was any such thing as "Mithraism"
3. The presumption that the cult of Mithras predates Jesus of Nazareth.
3. The non-sequitur that "you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism" if there is worship of Mithras in pre-Christian times; the logic of the sentence seems non-existant.

But, you cannot show or demonstrate that the Jesus story predated Mithraism or the mysteries of the Mithras.

Underground temples and artifacts of the Mithraea appeared in archaeology in the 1st century AD BEFORE any artifacts of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the offspring of the Holy Ghost.

The archaelogical evidence collected so far cannot place the Jesus story before Mithraism. The archaeological evidence in the 1st century for the Jesus story is virtually ZERO.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaa5874

The evidence of antiquity from an apologetic source is showing similarity, and connection, it therefore cannot be a fallacy to argue for derivation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Non sequitur noted.

Pardon me, but I will ignore now your posts until you demonstrate some ability to read and reason.

But, I won't ignore your posts at all whatsoever.

All your fallacies will be exposed and debunked.

An early apologetic source, Justin Martyr, has shown the similarities between the birth story of Jesus and the Eucharist with Mithraism, it must be that an argument can be made that the birth of Jesus in a cave and the ritual of the Eucharist was DERIVED from Mithraism bearing in mind that archaeological evidence for Mithraism predated any artifacts for Jesus Christ, the offspring of the Holy Ghost.

mountainman · 04-01-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, unless you can show that the Jesus story pre-dated Mithraism, then you certainly cannot argue or demonstrate that there is no similarity, nor connection or even derivation from Mithraism.

This involves numerous logical and factual errors.

2. The assumption that there was any such thing as "Mithraism"

You should pay a visit to the relics recovered from the London Mithraeum

Quote:

The artefacts recovered were put on display in the Museum of London.

Among the sculptures the archaeologists found was a head of Mithras himself, recognizable from his Phrygian cap. The base of the head is tapered to fit a torso, which was not preserved. Another discovery was a marble relief, 0.53 m, of Mithras in the act of killing the astral bull, the Tauroctony that was as central to Mithraism as the Crucifixion is to Christianity. On it Mithras is accompanied by the two small figures of the torch-bearing celestial twins of Light and Darkness, Cautes and Cautopates, within the cosmic annual wheel of the zodiac. At the top left, outside the wheel, Sol–Helios ascends the heavens in his biga; at top right Luna descends in her chariot. The heads of two wind-gods, Boreas and Zephyros, are in the bottom corners. It bears the inscription

VLPIVS SILVANVS FACTVS ARAVSIONE EMERITVS LEG II AVG VOTVM SOLVIT
which may be translated

"Ulpius Silvanus, veteran soldier of the Second Augustan Legion, in fulfillment of a vow, makes this altar [as the result of] a vision" [1] or "Ulpius Silvanus, veteran of the Second Legion Augusta, fulfilled his vow having become (a Mithraist) at Orange" [University of Edinburgh, Classics Department, teaching collection] (Collingwood and Wright 1965, 3).

Another view of the temple foundations.Nearby were buried heads of the Roman goddess Minerva and a finely-detailed bearded head of Serapis, Jupiter-like in his features but securely recognizable by the grain-basket, the modius, upon his head, a token of resurrection.

An inscription dateable AD 307–310 at the site

PRO SALVTE D N CCCC ET NOB CAES DEO MITHRAE ET SOLI INVICTO AB ORIENTE AD OCCIDENTEM

may be translated

"For the Salvation of our lords the four emperors and the noble Caesar, and to the god Mithras, the Invincible Sun from the east to the west" (Collingwood and Wright 1965, 4)

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