Attonitus

Sorry Spin, "Price has a simple solution, and the only one I’ve seen that makes any sense" is a quote of Doherty

Vinnie

Updated. Sorry bout that

Vinnie

Gundry also writes of problems with the mostly naked young man coming from Midrash here in this incident which I did not include but should have. I will update the next installment to include a quote from him written on pp. 861-862 of his commentary on Mark. What he writes makes the theory even more problematic.

The fact that the almost naked guy comes from nowhere goes nowhere is probably the reason for its origin. Its so strange that it warranted much speculation. Its sometimes claimed that Judas went looking at John Mark's mother in laws house (Acts 12:12-13) but when he didn't find Jesus he went to Gethsemane and John Mark followed in a hurry (hence mostly naked). One of course wonders why Mark nor anyone else has any of these details.

This is why, as I mentioned, my pushing it as being part of Secret Mark is very strong. Other explanations are simply non-existent.

Vinnie

Vinnie

Bayes Theorem will be used also in the next update!



http://members.aol.com/johnp71/bayes.html

yummyfur

Couldn't this also be an expansion of Zech 13:7?

In Mark we have

48 And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as you would against a robber?
49 "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."
50 And they all left Him and fled.
51 A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him.
52 But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

Many commentaries on the NT specify that the Scripture fullfilled is Zechariah 13:7, which reads

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. "

So adding the youth would be the final part of the scripture.

Could it be that the "youth" and "little ones" were interpreted as Essenes and therefore the simple single linen garment is added to make this clear?

Patrick Schoeb

spin

You are totally unjustified about your assumptions regarding midrash, Vinnie.

Where is the conscious midrash on Zech 14:21 in Mk's report of the temple commotion? Where is the conscious midrash on Zech 9:9 for Mk's triumphal entry? In fact, Vinnie, where are almost all the conscious midrashes for Hebrew bible allusions Mk is rich with without any apparent HB midrash?? Is the best you can come up with a piece of pre-packaged conflation from 1:2-3?

There is almost no overt midrash in Mk despite it teeming with HB allusions. So the assumptions you make when you say

There is no knowledge whatsoever that either Mark or his audience would have understood such an oblique reference. This fact alone totally and completely destroys this arguments.

are erroneous, for nearly all the HB allusions in Mk go by without sign of knowledge "that either Mark or his audience would have understood such an oblique reference."

Vinnie, yours is a strange argument from silence which asks for one to take coincidence to extremes. You can forget this one and try another tack.


spin

Magus55

Vinnie, as to your reply on the Homosexuality references in the Bible thread:

I can just read the chapter titles/description of your article and tell its a load of crap, and nothing but highly questionable assumptions.

*Silence on Wife and Children*. Yeah, because not being married and not having children is clearly evidence of homosexuality....

Jesus' mission was not to come to Earth and start a mortal family life. Jesus came to Earth for a VERY specific purpose. It would in fact, be more questionable and suspicious if Jesus was married. Why would God incarnate have any need to get married? That was not His purpose for being on Earth. Sorry, but this is an invalid argument for Jesus being gay. While you're at it, lets just call every other human on Earth, including monks, nuns, and priests who choose a Celibate life homosexual. Thats what this argument is assuming.

The article also says there is no evidence for Jesus being heterosexual. Well, duh. What the heck kind of evidence would there be? A passage with Jesus checking out the butt on Mary Magdalene? Does Jesus the Christ, God incarnate who knew no sin, mean anything to you? Lusting after a women ( which is the only thing I can even think of as evidence towards heterosexuality, and even that isn't very strong), is a sin, so I don't expect Jesus to have done that.

What does Jesus dining with sinners have to do with homosexuality? All sin is equal to God, and Jesus doesn't deny sinners, because all of us are sinners. If Jesus rejected sinners, what the heck would be the point of Him coming to Earth? He came specifically to be among sinners because thats who needs to hear His message and seek repentence. I don't even get how your argument of Jesus eating with sinners is even related to being gay, let alone a valid argument.

Skimming through the other points proves to be a waste of time so I won't touch on them. You have failed to actually provide convincing arguments to Jesus being gay. More like random assumptions, some of which don't even pertain to the topic or have any relevence. To sum up your argument, its basically: Jesus doesn't have a wife or kids, so he's gay; Jesus has male disciples, so he's gay; Jesus eats with sinners, so hes gay.

Attonitus

spin I agree fully and I recommend earnestly to Vinnie the reading of work "The Gospel of Mark As Midrash"

Attonitus

GMark 14:50 refers to Zec 13:7. GMark 14,51-52 refers to Amos 2:16 (Shenk, Passionsbericht, 211; recently, Price).


Not necessarily, the use of linen clothes was typical among well-off people.

Attonitus

Vinnie, you're amazing. Was the monolithic marriage at that time the norm in the Judaism? The Essenes and Therapeutae were known to have practiced celibacy, they were also gays?