aa5874

Justin Martyr presented Jesus, whom he called Christ, as a God and a man on earth during the time of Pilate ,and Trypho did not accept such a Jesus, both God and man. Trypho called the birth of Justin's Jesus, "Greek fables and a monstrous phenomena."

Nowhere, in "Dialogue with Trypho" did Trypho recant his position on the fable Jesus, the god/man.

And Trypho declared in the 67th chapter of "Dialogue"

Jeffrey Gibson

Hmm. What an interesting criterion for Jews "accepting the existence of someone" you are advancing here -- that that someone has to be mentioned in a Jewish writing other than those in the NT and by Josephus or by a Jewish author whose works survive in Christian quotations of their works.

In asserting it you are committing yourself to its converse -- that if we find no mention of someone spoken of in the NT and in Josephus in any extant Jewish writings or by any other Jewish author quoted by Christians, then that someone was not accepted by Jews as having existed.

So .. in how many Jewish writings besides those of Josephus do we find mention of Elieazar ben Yair or Athronges, or Judas of Gamala and Zadok the Pharisee?

In how many Jewish writings besides those of Josephus do we find Caiaphas or Annas or Jesus bar Annus or Pompey or Cestius Gallus or Theudas or the Egyptian or Herod Antipas or Aretas or Archileus or Petronius or Festus or made note of?

In how many Jewish writings besides those of Josephus do we find Simon son of Gioras or Mariamnne or Judas the Essene or Jonathan son of Ananus or Flavius Silva or Titus or Vespasian or Tigranes or Elieazar son of Ananias or Cleopatra referred to?

In how many Jewish writings besides Josephus and the NT do we find note being taken of Tiberius or Augustus or Herod Phillip and Herodias and Salome?

So .. what ancient Jew "accepted the existence of" all of these people (i.e., wrote about them)? Philo? Trypho (from whom, BTW, we have no writings)? The authors of the DSS and the Pseudepigrapha?

If none of them do, then I guess we must conclude that Jews -- or at least such Jews as Philo, Trypho, the authors of the DSS and of the 1st cent CE Pseudepigrapha --- did not believe that these people ever existed (even if Josephus and the authors of the NT did).

And please don't tell me that my logic is defective. After all, the logic I'm employing here is yours.

Jeffrey

aa5874

That's illogical.

Some poster claimed ancient Jews appear to have accepted Jesus, all I need is a name, if the poster does not have a name maybe they can refer me to a source.

You have presented another illogical position.

It is you who have committed yourself to your own fallacy.

You must answer your own questions. You know the answers.


You claim my logic is defective and you still use it? You are defective, logically.

Jeffrey Gibson

It is? Please show how it is so.

Yes, to show what absurd conclusions it leads to if we accept it.

Jeffrey

Amaleq13

You got it right in the first sentence but changed it in the second.

Trypho refers to Jesus' alleged virgin birth as a fable he does not refer to Jesus as a fable. In fact, you included a quote where he clearly accepts that Jesus was real:

"....rather [should] say that Jesus was born man of men"

That is rather stupid advice if Trypho did not believe that Jesus even existed.

You have zero evidence to support your assertion that the existence of Jesus was challenged in the 2nd century.

Amaleq13

Why pretend like you don't know who wrote this to you?

Why pretend that you haven't already had it explained to you?

Trypho tacitly accepts the historical existence of Jesus every time he fails to challenge Justin's reference to Jesus being crucified under Pilate and, again, when he suggests that Justin should drop the silly virgin birth fable and admit to Jesus having been born like every other man.

aa5874

And Justin never dropped the silly virgin birth fable and never admitted that Jesus was born like every other man, so Trypho would not have accepted Justin's god/man virgin birth Greek fable Jesus who was called the Christ.

This is Trypho, in the second century, about one hundred years after the supposed Jesus, who was called Christ, of Justin.

"Dialogue" LXXXIX Trypho is very clear, Justin's Jesus who was called CHRIST is not here yet , about one hundred years later. Trypho and his whole nation must be still waiting.

Amaleq13

Trypho rejects the virgin birth story and suggests that Justin should simply acknowledge that Jesus was born like any other man. You can pretend that this is not contrary to your assertion but you aren't fooling anyone.

Yep, denying the virgin birth but accepting that Jesus was crucified under Pilate and born like any other man.

Yes, Trypho is clear but you still don't understand him because you keep confusing Jewish expectations of The Messiah and Christian belief that Jesus was The Messiah. :banghead:

Steven Carr

Did Trypho , or any other second-century person, ever deny that Homer existed?

aa5874

Did any second century person claim that Homer was the Christ, was born of a virgin, the offspring of the Holy Ghost, was resurrected and ascended to heaven?