sschlichter

thentian,

kai simply means "and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet"

saying it is a literary device is like saying "and" is a literary device of shakespeare. it appears in nearly every sentence in Matt or any book that needs the equivalent of an english conjunction. Matthew seems to often start a thought with kai as a way to connect thoughts but this does not have anything to do with the 'suddenly' and certainly kai does not mean that the sentence jumps ahead of the sentence before it. the thought is connected because it occurred after the thought before it.

try Matt 8:14. It starts with kai and is not 'suddenly' after the verse before it.

the suddenly comes from the word idou and has nothing to do with the kai.

the verse reads like this.

kai = and, but for, then (which one is determined by the context)
idou = behold, lo, see, (or even suddenly - although less often)
ihsouj = Jesus
uphnthsen = meet, go to
autoij = her, him, feminine and plural = them

and behold jesus met them
but suddenly jesus met them
for, lo jesus met the women

I did not say suddenly is necessarily inaccurate but it is being mis-interpreted to mean suddenly as an interruption to the running of the disciples. A literal reading (without trying to force Jesus to interrupt them) is that they ran and told the disciples, then chronologically after that, "and behold, jesus met them".

don't take my word for it. look each word up. I am sure there are places online to do that.

This premise is based on the premise that 'kai' means something different in Matthew. I also think it is interesting how everyone keeps stating what details are important. what precedent do you have to state what details are important in a resurrection? The author is telling you what details are important. Please, if you are going to assert that missing details are important and should not be skipped, please include why in the context of the author it is important and should have been included.

Matthew included more post-resurrection details than Mark. Ho chose which ones to include. The role of women in the first century may or may not have been important to him. By the time he wrote it, I am quite sure he knew about Peter and John's visit and still selected the details that promoted the themes he was communicating in the single chapter that he dedicated to the topic.

~Steve

sschlichter

probably not, but we do not have anything simplistic like that. Does one of the passages we have say anything contradictory like that? If so, we can take a look at whether they are actually contradictory.

~Steve

sschlichter

In the case of Luke:

he would not have clearly indicated that he is trying to provide an accurate orderly account.

(Luke 1:3) So it seemed good to me as well, because I have followed all things carefully from the beginning, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,

these are the words of someone who thinks they are writing a historical narrative or is being deceptive in writing fiction. either way, they are aware of it.

~Steve

thentian

Ha! So let us look at all the other places Matthew uses KAI and IDOU together, then!

(Matthew 2:9) When they [the wise men] had heard the king, they departed;
and, lo, [KAI IDOU] the star, which they saw in the east, went before
them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

(Matthew 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, [KAI IDOU] the heavens were opened unto him, and he
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 An
lo [KAI IDOU] a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.

(Matthew 4:11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, [KAI IDOU] angels
came and ministered unto him.

(Matthew 8:1) When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes
followed him. 2 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there came a leper and worshipped
him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

(Matthew 8:23) And when he [Jesus] was entered into a ship, his disciples
followed him. 24 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there arose a great tempest in
the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

(Matthew 8:28) And when he [Jesus] was come to the other side into the
country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming
out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] they cried out, saying, What have we to do
with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us
before the time?

(Matthew 8:31) So the devils besought him [Jesus], saying, If thou cast us
out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto
them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine:
and, behold, [KAI IDOU] the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep
place into the sea, and perished in the waters. 33 And they that kept
them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and
what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. 34 And, behold, [KAI
IDOU] the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they
besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

(Matthew 9:1) And he Jesus] entered into a ship, and passed over, and came
into his own city. 2 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] they brought to him a man
sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto
the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
3 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] certain of the scribes said within themselves,
This man blasphemeth.

(Matthew 12:41) The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this
generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching
of Jonas; and, behold, [KAI IDOU] a greater than Jonas is here. 42 The
queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and
shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to
hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, [KAI IDOU] a greater than Solomon
is here.

(Matthew 15:21) Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of
Tyre and Sidon. 22 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] a woman of Canaan came out of
the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord,
thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

(Matthew 17:1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was
transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his
raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there appeared
unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and
said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us
make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for
Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold [KAI IDOU] a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

(Matthew 19:13) Then were there brought unto him little children, that he
[Jesus] should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked
them. 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to
come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And he laid his
hands on them, and departed thence. 16 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] one came
and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may
have eternal life?

(Matthew 20: 29) And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude
followed him [Jesus]. 30 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] two blind men sitting by
the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying,
Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

(Matthew 26:49) And forthwith he [Judas] came to Jesus, and said, Hail,
master; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art
thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. 51 And,
behold, [KAI IDOU] one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his
hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and
smote off his ear.

(Matthew 27:50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded
up the ghost. 51 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] the veil of the temple was rent
in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the
rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

(Matthew 28:1) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the
sepulchre. 2 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there was a great earthquake: for
the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the
stone from the door, and sat upon it.

(Matthew 28:5) And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for
he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go
quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and,
behold, [KAI IDOU] he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see
him: lo, I have told you.

-

That was all of them except for 28:9, which I will leave for you to translate!

-

I hope it doesn't look to you like I was deliberately misleading you with my previous post. I wrote that long before I had properly understood what I was reading on that site I showed you, so I should never have posted it. By the time I realized my mistake, you had already responded, so it was no use deleting it. Blame it on excitement, I guess!

sschlichter

they ran to tell the disciples. kai idou Jesus met them.

it could have been suddenly, but it was still after they ran to tell the disciples. kai idou does not precede the running and telling, and since another narrator says he appeared to them after, it corrobates the natural chronological sequence of running, telling, beholding (suddenly or not), and greeting.

Since Matthew has no record of telling the disiples but has a record of the disciples going to galilee (since they were told) then the telling had to occur either after 8 or after 10. I beleive it happened when it says in happened, when they ran to tell the disciples.


many of the example you gave corroborates this:

(Matthew 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, [KAI IDOU] the heavens were opened unto him

first he was baptized, then came up, and kai idou, the heavens opened.

(Matthew 4:11) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, [KAI IDOU] angels
came and ministered unto him.

first the devil left him kai idou angles came

(Matthew 8:1) When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes
followed him. 2 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there came a leper and worshipped
him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

first multitudes followed him kai idou (even unrelated) there came a leper

(Matthew 8:23) And when he [Jesus] was entered into a ship, his disciples
followed him. 24 And, behold, [KAI IDOU] there arose a great tempest in
the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

first he entered, then the disciples followed, kai idou a storm.

This chronological reason, with the fact that the conversation has similar items as does Johns make it even more clear that it occurs after. what more Mary M, in John 20:18 says she has seen the Lord after.

Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and informed the disciples, "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them what Jesus had said to her.

no, not at all. I didn't think that. I have had that same experience. I am glad their is an edit option on this site.

~Steve

dr lazer blast

considering amaleq can't make a point without it being fallacious is there any other takes upon the narrative?

Net2004

Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you."


8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.


9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me."


why is jesus telling them to do something they have already done?


it is quite clear that kai idou comes WHEN they are running.Why would the verse 9 begin with "and as they went..."?

thentian

Wov! You´re really not seeing the same thing I´m seeing are you? But first how do you think KAI IDOU ought to be translated in this modern age? I feel that both "and behold!" and "and lo!" is a bit outmoded. How about "and ooh!" ? A bit juvenile, perhaps? Maybe "and look!" ?

Anyhow, I certainly don´t think KAI IDOU ought to be translated as "suddenly" as a general rule, but I still want to point out that the translators of NIV and other modern bible versions chose that to convey the meaning of KAI IDOU. Many others, if not most, do something that may surprise you if you´re using New American Standard Bible (NAS). I´ll give you good ole´ King James for example: (inserting 8 in front)

8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him

I´m sure you´ll agree that these translations doesn´t allow any inserting of events from John between 8 and 9. Otherwise, what untold story are they on the way to tell and where have they been?

So, what are these translations (which seem to be in a clear majority, btw) seeing in KAI IDOU that makes them do this? It looks to me like KAI IDOU is his way of marking a highlight in the story he is currently telling. KAI ties it to the previous, and IDOU becomes a sort of "OOH!" (on a couple of occasions more like "Uh-oh!") Build up the story, then wham! Look at the list I made earlier where you can see all the places where Matthew used KAI IDOU together, and see if you don't agree!

Gotta get some sleep now, so

Cheers!

sschlichter

I am not seeing what you are seeing because I am not fishing for a contradiction.

KJV is not seeing anything in the text, they are assuming that Jesus interrupted them before they got to the disciples and adding 'as they went' for readability. they added it to the text. I do not mean intentionally, it is really quite innocuous. They assumed (as you are) that it was before so they translated it that way.

both words are way to common to get anything like that out of it. they occur together constantly. Luke 7:37, for example starts with kai idou.

Then when a woman of that town, who was a sinner, learned that Jesus was dining at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfumed oil.

No, ooh, no wow, no bang. no sudden movements. If I assumed this women jumped out from behind a bush (as you and KJV have in Matt 28:8) then I might translate this as "but suddenly a woman..."

There is nothing in the text that would make you read it that way. The opposite is true. there is a lot of evidence that this is the same meeting that occurs in John 20:11-17 and the same meeting that Mary M tells the disciples about in John 20:18.

I am positing that Mat 28:9 says in modern English "But Jesus met them". nothing else is necessary - anything else supplied is bending the text unnecessarily to fit your need for a contradiction.

~Steve

sschlichter

good question.

because they did not beleive her (Luke 24:11). it was an angel that said to tell them before, now they had seen Jesus and were told to tell them that he had been seen (not just an angel) (John 20:18)

it doesn't. the KJV adds that for readability because they assume it happened before they met the disciples. I beleive it happened after because it is the same meeting described in John 20:11-28 (same content even) and Mary told them about it in John 20:18. "But Jesus met them" is the simplest translation and it happens right after they ran to tell the disciples, not before.

~Steve